Did the True Church Apostasized?

[DeepShadow]

Oh vey... you guys just don't get it... I refuse to "take your word" about Mormon doctrine.... all you've got to do is get me some official Mormon teachings that proclaim Brigham Young, Joseph Smith, and others who taught this way were in error.
Ummm no... but thanks for letting me know now... you've let me know in the past the Mr. Pratt's comments are not part of your faith, but I guess I'm shocked to hear that Brigham Young is viewed as someone who teaches error.
As soon as you can provide some written documents that dispute these writings of the leaders of your Church, you can be sure that I will take them over your word.... I can provide you with official Church documents, I wish you would do the same.

Scott, perhaps you've forgotten, but I addressed this a while ago when I first came to the board (link to original thread):

The Taylor quote is a doozy, because it appears to come from the mouth of a prophet, but there's one serious problem: the Journal of Discourses was a collection of books written by well-meaning but unauthorized members who wrote down as much as they could to send overseas to those who didn't hear the prophet/Apostles speak. Not only were they uninspired in what to copy, but the books are riddled with transcription errors, misquotes, and statements of questionable origin. Select portions of the books have been included in LDS study manuals with the approval of the First Presidency (and are therefore fair game for critics) but the rest remain apocryphal in the extreme.

The canon of LDS doctrine is established on the basis that something isn't doctrine until the Church says it is, so finding an authoritiative statement against the JoD would be like finding an authoritative statement against the scripto for a given television show--it isn't considered necessary. It's difficult to prove a negative this way, but perhaps one place to start would be to point out that the church's press (Deseret Book) does not and has never printed copies of the Journal of Discourses. Independent presses such as Bookcraft do this.

 

[DeepShadow]

Which "official church literature" might this be?

Perhaps we can stick to the Book of Mormon for our answer:

document.write(drawVerse(10,107886));1 Nephi 14:10
And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

On the surface, this sounds like more arrogance on the part of Joseph Smith...but wait a minute, is this meant to say that anyone who is not LDS is Catholic? Obviously not, nor could it be meant to disparage all non-LDS churches collectively, because there are people in the world who aren't members of either group--atheists, agnostics, etc.

Okay, so does this mean the LDS against everyone, everywhere? Before jumping to that conclusion, ask yourself which group Judas Iscariot would belong to. I prefer to make no specific judgements, even of Judas, but it stands to reason that there will be those who claim to belong to the True Church (whatever that is) who are actually fighting for the other side.

So now the boundary lines are getting really fuzzy, and these churches described no longer correspond to any known churches. Just as there are members of Christ's church who are fighting of the side of Bablyon, just so there are atheists and agnostics, Buddhists and Hindus who can and do fight on the side of truth. This was never intended to delineate two earthly churches, but rather two spiritual churches, and each of us must choose every day which side we are on.

 

[DeepShadow]

While I'm at it, it may be time to bring back more of the stuff I said in that other thread. All except the Brigham Young quote* are from official sources--unlike the Journal of Discourses--so hopefully that will help establish that we believe such statements to be in error, regardless of who actually said them:

*--correction, the Young quote is also from an established source, as it was quoted in the Ensign with the approval of the First Presidency.

Gordon B. Hinckley, “We recognize the good in all churches. We recognize the value of religion generally. We say to everyone: live the teachings which you have received from your church. We invite you to come and learn from us, to see if we can add to those teachings and enhance your life and your understanding of things sacred and divine. Now we work with people of other faiths on common causes, many of them across the world. We recognize theological differences. We believe that we can disagree theologically without being disagreeable, and we hope to do so. We have been rather careful about surrendering in any way our doctrinal standards, anything of that kind as part of an ecumenical effort, but we certainly have worked with people, and do work with people, and want to work with other groups in tackling common social problems, things of that kind which are so much in need of attention these days throughout the world” (interview with Lawrence Spicer, London News Service, 28 Aug. 1995).

Gordon B. Hinckley, Remarks at Pioneer Day Commemoration Concert:
"This city and state have now become the home of many people of great diversity in their backgrounds, beliefs, and religious persuasions. I plead with our people to welcome them, to befriend them, to mingle with them, to associate with them in the promulgation of good causes."

"As I have said before, we must not be clannish. We must never adopt a holier-than-thou attitude. We must not be self-righteous. We must be magnanimous and open and friendly. We can keep our faith. We can practice our religion. We can cherish our method of worship without being offensive to others. I take this occasion to plead for a spirit of tolerance and neighborliness, of friendship and love toward those of other faiths."

Joseph Smith, Articles of Faith 1:11 "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."

Brigham Young: “To be adverse to Gentiles [as the word was then used], because they are Gentiles, or Jews, because they are Jews, is in direct opposition to the genius of our religion. It matters not what a man’s creed is, whether it be Catholic, or Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, Quaker, or Jew, he will receive kindness and friendship from us” (quoted in Preston Nibley, Brigham Young: The Man and His Work [1936], 416).

Although they don't speak for the church authoritatively, quite a few others have expressed opinions in similar directions that have been published in church magazines:
L. Harold Wright, “We Made Friends from Other Faiths,” Ensign, June 1976, 52
http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway....20faiths%20.htm

Gerald E. Jones, “Respect for Other People’s Beliefs,” Ensign, Oct. 1977, 69
http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway....s%20beliefs.htm

 

[DeepShadow]

Back on the topic of the Great and Abominable Church, here's an interesting thought:

1 Nephi 21:25, while quoting Isaiah, has a footnote pointing to the Joseph Smith Translation of Isaiah. This would suggest the Brass Plates from which Nephi was quoting had a translation error. Who was responsible for such errors? According to Nephi, it was the Great and Abominable Church...which would mean they were present before 600 BC! Obviously this couldn't be the Catholic Church, or any other modern church.

Based on the conclusions in my post above, it's pretty safe to day the Great and Abominable Church has always been around, at least insofar as there were people fighting the Truth. The prophecy of Nephi refers to the church forming among the Gentiles, but that's not to say that it didn't exist before among other groups.

 

[Scott1]

Thanks for the efforts folks.... but I must say that I am unmoved..... since I appreciate all of you as friends, I guess I will just drop the thread.

Peace to all,
Scott

 

[Quiddity]

Apology accepted. I guess I just feel that leaders of major Christian denominations should not be addressed by their given names. Would you, in speaking of the Pope, refer to him as "Joe"?

That's fine I understand now.

Please re-read my post #126 on page 13 of this thread. Perhaps you missed it first time around. I'm not sure why this belief is so confusing to you.

You are right. I missed it. Although now new questions arise that perhaps are better suited for another thread.

~Victor

 

[Katzpur]

Thanks for the efforts folks.... but I must say that I am unmoved..... since I appreciate all of you as friends, I guess I will just drop the thread.

Thanks for the efforts folks.... but I must say that I am unmoved..... since I appreciate all of you as friends, I guess I will just drop the thread. Great minds think alike.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

I also voted yes, but I really don't want to debate this with Catholics because I think it is insulting to their faith. I would be interested in hearing the thoughts of any Christian who isn't Catholic and does not believe that the church apostasized. I would say that if there was no Apostasy then the Catholic church has God's truth and authority.

Can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Johnlove]

All Christian Church denominations are cursed.

(Galatians 1:7-8) “Not that there can be more than one Good News; it is merely that some troublemakers among you want to change the Good News of Christ; and let me warn you that if anyone preaches a version of the Good News different from the one you have already heard, he is to be condemned.”

(Galatians 1:6-9) “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!”

No organized Christian Church is teaching what the apostles taught.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

All Christian Church denominations are cursed.

(Galatians 1:7-8) “Not that there can be more than one Good News; it is merely that some troublemakers among you want to change the Good News of Christ; and let me warn you that if anyone preaches a version of the Good News different from the one you have already heard, he is to be condemned.”

(Galatians 1:6-9) “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!”

No organized Christian Church is teaching what the apostles taught.

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." ROM. 2:13 But Paul is not referencing the OT code of law, yet that is the founfation of the church Jesus Christ is head of.

 

[outhouse]

Can't have your cake and eat it too.

he has not posted here in 8 years, good luck getting a reply.

 

[e.r.m.]

All Christian Church denominations are cursed.

(Galatians 1:7-8) “Not that there can be more than one Good News; it is merely that some troublemakers among you want to change the Good News of Christ; and let me warn you that if anyone preaches a version of the Good News different from the one you have already heard, he is to be condemned.”

(Galatians 1:6-9) “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!”

No organized Christian Church is teaching what the apostles taught.

Pray tell, what is your understanding of what the apostles taught?

 

[Johnlove]

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." ROM. 2:13 But Paul is not referencing the OT code of law, yet that is the founfation of the church Jesus Christ is head of.

Here is some of what was taught by Jesus/apostles that the Church no longer teaches, and which tells us the Church is condemned.

(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”

(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”


(1 John 3:9) “No one, who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”

(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”

(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.”

(Matthew 23:8-9) “You, however must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers. You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven.”

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

Here is some of what was taught by Jesus/apostles that the Church no longer teaches, and which tells us the Church is condemned.

(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”

(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”


(1 John 3:9) “No one, who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”

(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”

(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.”

(Matthew 23:8-9) “You, however must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers. You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven.”

The texts you're referencing only indicate that a problem exist. However even if the texts are generally taught that does identify the problem or solve it.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

he has not posted here in 8 years, good luck getting a reply.

So?

 

[Johnlove]

The texts you're referencing only indicate that a problem exist. However even if the texts are generally taught that does identify the problem or solve it.

I believe only God can solve the problem, and bring the Church back to what it was before Constantine the Great.

Jesus told me thirty-six years ago that a time was coming soon when man would suffer more than he has ever suffered. He told me I was to give a word and leave. Then he said out of that word a community would grow. He wants a place of safety for his people.

I believe that community will be God’s Church revived. So the gates of hell will not prevail.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

I believe only God can solve the problem, and bring the Church back to what it was before Constantine the Great.

Jesus told me thirty-six years ago that a time was coming soon when man would suffer more than he has ever suffered. He told me I was to give a word and leave. Then he said out of that word a community would grow. He wants a place of safety for his people.

I believe that community will be God’s Church revived. So the gates of hell will not prevail.

"Jesus told me"""??? Yeah right. You really do have a problem.

 

[Johnlove]

"Jesus told me"""??? Yeah right. You really do have a problem.

Yes you are right I do have a problem. The problem is that I can’t find people who are also Jesus’ own.

You see Jesus told us that he would call his own out by name, and they would follow him.

Jesus also gave us his Holy Spirit to teach us, and almost everyone believes what man teaches him or her about God, and they don’t even believe the Holy Spirit talks to people.

(1 John 2: 27) “But you have not lost the anointing that he gave you, and you do not need anyone to teach you; the anointing he gave teaches you everything: you are anointed with truth, not with a lie, and as it has taught you, so you must stay in him.”

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

Yes you are right I do have a problem. The problem is that I can’t find people who are also Jesus’ own.

You see Jesus told us that he would call his own out by name, and they would follow him.

Jesus also gave us his Holy Spirit to teach us, and almost everyone believes what man teaches him or her about God, and they don’t even believe the Holy Spirit talks to people.

(1 John 2: 27) “But you have not lost the anointing that he gave you, and you do not need anyone to teach you; the anointing he gave teaches you everything: you are anointed with truth, not with a lie, and as it has taught you, so you must stay in him.”

"Holy Spirit talks to people" do you mean statements verbly stated and you hear them? Post what you have heard.
Contemporary churches are the doors into the pit. They can't be fixed no matter what you do and it is a waste of your time if you even try.

 

[Johnlove]

"Holy Spirit talks to people" do you mean statements verbly stated and you hear them? Post what you have heard.
Contemporary churches are the doors into the pit. They can't be fixed no matter what you do and it is a waste of your time if you even try.

Jesus/Holy Spirit has been talking to me for forty some years. Jesus personally told me not to study about him in a seminary that he would teach me about him.

One time the Holy Spirit told me to tell people that no matter who told them anything about God, be it a priest, bishop, or anyone they were to ask Jesus if it was right or wrong.

It would take a very large book to record all that God has said to me.

The true Christians are those who hear the Word of God, and live that Word.

(1 John 3:9) “No one, who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.

(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”



God will bring together his people, and then once again his Church will be alive. That will be the same Church that existed before Constantine the Great.