Did the Abrahamic God Create Evil?

[ashai]

As I had written in a different topic, "Evil spirits", it was God who allow Satan to inflict Job. And it was God (again) who sent evil spirit against King Saul, to possess him and make him jealous of David (1 Sam 16:14, and in 18:10). The original sin that Saul had committed that he didn't destroy all the animals and spare King Agag of Amalek, when he was ordered to massarce of trhe people (1 Sam 15).

In the case of Saul, it was very clear, who control the evil spirits, and it wasn't Satan.

Ushta Gnostic

Precisely!!!!!:bounce But you gloss over the truly evil act that is depicted. For it was Yahweh who ordered Saul to do the massacre. Besides this being an act that offends the very notion of a good God, it confirms the idea that Yahweh creates evil. In addition the whole thing clashes with John's claim that God is love itself. Plus since Christian claim that God does not change, any allegations of different 'dispensations' holds no water

Ushta Te
Ashai

 

[ashai]

Agreed, because you need evil to have good.

W hy? Specially considering that:
A) In Genesis it was man's choice that gave them knowlege of good abd evil
and
B) The Abrahamic God punishes evil doing which evil he gives himself so, logically, he ought to punish himself

Ushta Te
Ashai

 

[ashai]

I'm sure you'd know the hebrew better than I. But I think this is a theological point worth arguing. I think that causing evil is much, much different than causing woe. Evil is different stuff altogether than woe.

And (I'm going out on a limb here) I don't think God implanted greed and lust into us. Greed and lust are dark and void emotional states based upon selfishness, not selflessness. When we turn away from love, which is selfless (God is love), then we turn to ourselves, or selfishness. Greed and lust seek to satisfy the self -- selfless emotions seek to satisfy others.

Humans will do all sorts of things in the dark that many would never do in the light.

Darkness only exists when there is no light, because darkness is only the absence of light. Evil only exists where there is no good, because evil is only the absence of good.

Ushta Sojourner

Besides the fact that woe , whatever it is, is not good, the translation of ra as evil makes a lot more sense considering that Yahweh, repeatedly, in Exodus, Joshua and Samuel, orders genocide of Cananites and even of their animals, certainly an evil act.

Ushta Te
ashai

 

[ashai]

There are several cases in the scripture that God do thing to glorify oneself. From a human perspective, today, this sounds very conceited and selfish - and an attitude that you can expect from another human, but not from a god.

Ushta Gnostic

Precisely Frubals to you!:dan:

ushta Te
Ashai

 

[ashai]

God neither created Good, nor Evil. He created man, who is flawed, and who is capable of doing evil or good deeds.

Ushta Michel

Are you then saying that the god who is described in Christian and Islamic Theology as All Powerful and All knowing , purposefuly created a flawed creation? If that is so how can he then condemn it to either torment or separation?

 

[ashai]

I think that if God created man without flaws, then man would be angels. Angels do not have free will, they only do what God asks them to do. God created man purposedly with flaws so they can choose their own way.

JD

Ushta Judgement Day

Why would it follow that if God created men without flaws, men would be angels? Furthermore, are you saying that free will is a flaw? I mean you said that angels have no free will and are perfect, thus it seems you are saying that free will is a flaw.

Besides , did not Iblis rebel when he refused to praise man? If he did then he showed free will, didn't he

Ushta Te
Ashai

 

[jewscout]

ashai,
to an extent i agree w/ you, however G-d is illustrating that all things come from Him, there is no other source of creation.
When man does evil things we should not blame G-d for these things because He also gave us the ability to choose not to perform these acts.

 

[hanif]

THE GOD OF ABRAHAM CREATED EVIL FOR EXAMINE TO HUMANITY.SO HE KNOW THE
GOOD AND EVIL.
God neither created Good, nor Evil. He created man, who is flawed, and who is capable of doing evil or good deeds. MİCHEL

DEAR MICHEL GOD IS THE CREATOR OF EVERYTHING

 

[sojourner]

be that as it may it's still not something found in Torah.



Lust, Greed, Gluttony...these are all desires, as you said, desires that are in us. Who do you think but them there??
and as you illustrated these desires, when checked and harnassed are used for good, but when not can make you do evil acts.
these are our base, animalistic desires referred to in Judaism as our Yetzer HaRa.

The desire is different than the sin, though. Desire can either be expressed as love, or lust. When we turn from God, we experience lust. When we turn toward God, we experience love. When we turn from God, we experience greed. When we turn toward God, we experience generosity. God didn't create our turning away from God. Sin is a turning away, and it is a human construct, out of line with God's created order.

 

[sojourner]

Ushta Sojourner

Let's see, evil and good are names we give to the consequences of ethical choices. Natural evils, or acts of God, are not evil, ethically speaking, because they either spring from chance events (and chance must exist for free choice to be truly free) or they spring from events like earthquakes which actually preserve the planet, which would burst llike an over ripe tomato, if the pressures on its crust were not relieved by periodic earthquakes.:jiggy:

Don't believe it? OK. Name one evil or good that does not involve a choice by an ethically cognizant and endowed being . A choice in thought, word, and or, deed.:help:

As an example of what I mean, take 911, if Ozama had not thought of the attack and communicated his thoughts , it would not have happened. Indeed if the hi-jackers had decided not to Hi-jack the planes or not to smash them into the targets it, again, would not have happened. :tsk:

Again, the challenge is name an evil, or a good for that matter, that does not spring from the thoughts and or deeds of mortals. Of course this means, other than choices made by God, who at least to us Zoroastrians, is the source of all good, because, he has chosen it and will, always, choose it due to his wise and righteous nature.:dan:

Ushta te
Ashai

Good is more than an ethical choice. Good is the real state of God's created order. Evil happens as an ethical construct of humanity when we choose to act "on our own" instead of acting "in God."
Natural disasters are not "evil" in and of themselves. Humanity has called them evil, but the Bible speaks to calamity such as this in Job. When Job rails at God, God answers, "Were you there when I created the earth? You don't understand my ways." [paraphrased -- too busy to actually look it up]

If it is true that God created the universe, then the universe must be seen as being of God. If God is good, how could God have created evil, for God is good. The Bible tells us that God looked at everything God had made and called it "good."

 

[sojourner]

Ushta Sojourner

Besides the fact that woe , whatever it is, is not good, the translation of ra as evil makes a lot more sense considering that Yahweh, repeatedly, in Exodus, Joshua and Samuel, orders genocide of Cananites and even of their animals, certainly an evil act.

Ushta Te
ashai

An ethnic cleansing of the sort mentioned here was not particularly seen by the writers as an evil thing. It was seen as a cleansing of evil.

 

[jewscout]

The desire is different than the sin, though. Desire can either be expressed as love, or lust. When we turn from God, we experience lust. When we turn toward God, we experience love. When we turn from God, we experience greed. When we turn toward God, we experience generosity. God didn't create our turning away from God. Sin is a turning away, and it is a human construct, out of line with God's created order.

i don't necessarily disagree w/ you on that, i think what we have here is a difference of termonolgy.
i agree the desire is different than the sin, but the desire unchecked will cause you to "sin". The mechanics are there implanted in us by HaShem.
I say Greed and Lust so we know the motivation of the desire, not to mean that unchecked lust and greed are good things. But lets be honest here when most men encounter their bride-to-be for the first time lust is often a BIG part of the attraction and when i say lust i mean the physical attraction, not an uncontrollable desire to do the nasty
though G-d didn't cause us to sin, He did give us the mechanics that, if unchecked and uncontrolled by our better half (in Judaism our Yetzer HaTov) can cause us to fall from a higher place of spirituality and connection to the Divine.

 

[michel]

But with that logic he created man's flaws, and the capabilites of doing evil and good. He then must have created the evil and good for us to have the capability to do, or else we wouldn't be able to do it. The only logical explanation (in my opinion) is that god is not an omniscient, omnipotent being, but the simple encompassment of the universe. Thus there is no problem with our perceptions being a part of it. For Tao does not play favorites, does not move to the left or the right, but just is. Our concept of good and evil is just our ego trying to compartmentalize our feelings and how we perceive the world around us.

That is just my opinion.

Well, now that you mention it, that is a way of thinking to which I feel myself being drawn .............

 

[sojourner]

i don't necessarily disagree w/ you on that, i think what we have here is a difference of termonolgy.
i agree the desire is different than the sin, but the desire unchecked will cause you to "sin". The mechanics are there implanted in us by HaShem.
I say Greed and Lust so we know the motivation of the desire, not to mean that unchecked lust and greed are good things. But lets be honest here when most men encounter their bride-to-be for the first time lust is often a BIG part of the attraction and when i say lust i mean the physical attraction, not an uncontrollable desire to do the nasty
though G-d didn't cause us to sin, He did give us the mechanics that, if unchecked and uncontrolled by our better half (in Judaism our Yetzer HaTov) can cause us to fall from a higher place of spirituality and connection to the Divine.

Ok. But, if that's the case (and I don't necessarily disagree with you, either!), giving us the mechanics constitutes free will, which is also good, because it's part of God's creation. What we do with free will is our construction, not God's. If we choose to live in God, we do not sin. If we choose to turn from God, we sin. Again, our action -- not God's creation.

Love is desire. Lust is sinful desire. Lust isn't an emotion, it's a crime. Greed isn't an emotion, it's a crime. When I saw my wife for the first time, I didn't feel lust, I felt love.

 

[michel]

Ok. But, if that's the case (and I don't necessarily disagree with you, either!), giving us the mechanics constitutes free will, which is also good, because it's part of God's creation. What we do with free will is our construction, not God's. If we choose to live in God, we do not sin. If we choose to turn from God, we sin. Again, our action -- not God's creation.

Love is desire. Lust is sinful desire. Lust isn't an emotion, it's a crime. Greed isn't an emotion, it's a crime. When I saw my wife for the first time, I didn't feel lust, I felt love.

Very good points! Fruballs to you !

 

[jewscout]

Ok. But, if that's the case (and I don't necessarily disagree with you, either!), giving us the mechanics constitutes free will, which is also good, because it's part of God's creation. What we do with free will is our construction, not God's. If we choose to live in God, we do not sin. If we choose to turn from God, we sin. Again, our action -- not God's creation.

Love is desire. Lust is sinful desire. Lust isn't an emotion, it's a crime. Greed isn't an emotion, it's a crime. When I saw my wife for the first time, I didn't feel lust, I felt love.

I agree it constitutes free will.
but then i think the question is, is evil necessarily bad? G-d called all His creation good, correct?
now lets operate under the belief that G-d did not create evil. then G-d did not create everything therefore G-d is not G-d in the sense of being an all powerful creator.
If we create evil then we are equal to G-d in our creative force.

IMPO i do not believe that we are. Man is the manipulator, G-d is the creator of all things, including evil which is good.

let me try to explain. If everything that HaShem created He called "good" then evil must be good as well. How can this be? The evil inclination, embodied in the form of HaSatan, The satan, is our grinding stone. Without the external and internal temptation to do evil (and really we are not creating evil only feeding and nurturing it to give it power, a destructive power) we would not be able to rise above to come close to the Divine and our spiritual growth would be stagnant. The evil inclination (and don't think negatively about it what i mean is our primal selfish urges) can be a path to destruction but we can use it to better ourselves as well, to rise above our selfish desires and tame the Yetzer HaRa.

how much closer to G-d is the man faced w/ temptation who controls and diverts his desire than the man who faces none.

 

[sojourner]

I agree it constitutes free will.
but then i think the question is, is evil necessarily bad? G-d called all His creation good, correct?
now lets operate under the belief that G-d did not create evil. then G-d did not create everything therefore G-d is not G-d in the sense of being an all powerful creator.
If we create evil then we are equal to G-d in our creative force.

IMPO i do not believe that we are. Man is the manipulator, G-d is the creator of all things, including evil which is good.

let me try to explain. If everything that HaShem created He called "good" then evil must be good as well. How can this be? The evil inclination, embodied in the form of HaSatan, The satan, is our grinding stone. Without the external and internal temptation to do evil (and really we are not creating evil only feeding and nurturing it to give it power, a destructive power) we would not be able to rise above to come close to the Divine and our spiritual growth would be stagnant. The evil inclination (and don't think negatively about it what i mean is our primal selfish urges) can be a path to destruction but we can use it to better ourselves as well, to rise above our selfish desires and tame the Yetzer HaRa.

how much closer to G-d is the man faced w/ temptation who controls and diverts his desire than the man who faces none.

Evil is good...wha...??? Now you're overanalyzing. By definition, evil is evil. You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. Evil isn't anyone's creation. Evil is only what results in the absence of good. So...now humanity needs evil in order to attain to something higher? What ever happened to love God?

 

[ashai]

ashai,
to an extent i agree w/ you, however G-d is illustrating that all things come from Him, there is no other source of creation.
When man does evil things we should not blame G-d for these things because He also gave us the ability to choose not to perform these acts.

Ushta Jewish scout

Good an evil are not creations, they are name we give to the possible result of our choice. These exist inherently as possibilities, that is their existance is unmanifested , until some one actually makes a choice whose consequence we call evil or good, right or wrong Evil and good are not things they are results of choices as such they are not v created by God unless god chooses them.

Therefore, if god chooses evil then he cannot possibly condemn those that choose evil and be just.

In free will God gives ability to choose but the choice is always men. Since man cannot possibly know what is evil and which is good without experiencing the consequences of his choice, God cannot punish evil doers whenthey had A)No way of knowing what is good ( unless of course you believe that god walked about the garden of eden abd told them) and B) the evil result is given by God

Only informed free will can hope to make a wisw choice. but just telling some one this is bad does not solve the roblem because must people will noyt just accept some one else's word nn

Besides, all this is related to the purpose of creation. today we understand the sheer gtandiosity of creation, in ways that were impossible to Biblk\e writers. So I am going to ask you a rhetorical question, do you really believe that a) God created man so that he may worship , glorify and serve Him and B) Do you truly believe after watching the history of man for the last 5000 years that we are truly created in god's image/

While you answer I will answer the questions myself from our ( Zoroastrian) point of view

A) It does not make sense that a being or force capable of such grandiose creation. would need or want praise, worship or servitude from His creatures
B) It does not make sense that a creature as obviously immature as man is the image of God. Rather

We believe that the purpose of creation is precisely to have these immature beings become like unto the Most Wise:dan:

 

[ashai]

THE GOD OF ABRAHAM CREATED EVIL FOR EXAMINE TO HUMANITY.SO HE KNOW THE
GOOD AND EVIL.
God neither created Good, nor Evil. He created man, who is flawed, and who is capable of doing evil or good deeds. MİCHEL

DEAR MICHEL GOD IS THE CREATOR OF EVERYTHING

Ushta Hanif

Evil and good are not things they are results of choices. Thay have zero existence outside an ethical choice by an ethically cognizant being endowed with discernment and free will. Therefore god did not create them he can either choose to do things that have either evil or good, or both consequences, or he can be said to have made possible , by free will, the possibilty of good and evil , but he cannot be said to have created them.

Ushta te
Ashai

Ushta te
Ashai

 

[ashai]

Good is more than an ethical choice. Good is the real state of God's created order. Evil happens as an ethical construct of humanity when we choose to act "on our own" instead of acting "in God."
Natural disasters are not "evil" in and of themselves. Humanity has called them evil, but the Bible speaks to calamity such as this in Job. When Job rails at God, God answers, "Were you there when I created the earth? You don't understand my ways." [paraphrased -- too busy to actually look it up]

If it is true that God created the universe, then the universe must be seen as being of God. If God is good, how could God have created evil, for God is good. The Bible tells us that God looked at everything God had made and called it "good."

Ushta Sojourner

You might call the ideal or real estate of god's created order which Zarathushtra called, at least 3100 years ago Kshathra or Kingdom . But you are missing the point why is it good? It is good because it is harmony with god's choice for creation . If it were not in harmony with God's choice for creation it would not be good.

But even then, good its just a name, it has no existence outside the consequence of a choice Kshathra, kingdom or god's ideal or real order for creation is the result of god's choice. Thus we can name it good because the choice manifested it. The same applies to evil

If god would have chosen disorder and harm for nature it would not have been called good by us yet it would also been the consequence of god's choice,

Thankfully ,in our theology, God is righteousness personified, and therefore can do no wrong and no wrong means no evil, otherwise we would have Yahweh doing ra

As to natural evils, Did you understand me to say that they were acts of God? if you did, you did not understand my post re-read it. i have said that they are either actually beneficial or the product of chance and chance must exist in a Cosmos designed to allow for Free Will.

Ushta te
Ashai