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Did Pontius Pilate exist?

outhouse

Atheistically
A passover event also explains why the movenet within the Gentiles expanded so fast.

Paul was responsible for teaching and progressing the movement in the roman Empire, but it would not be possible for one man to spread that much oral tradition.

Its why Paul set up and wated to teach those who already knew, he wanted to guide those that already had this knowledge.
 

steeltoes

Junior member
Great. You can join the multidute of others who haven't done their research yet have no issues with dismissing those who have.

Then stop reading translations.



If Paul never wrote anything, we'd still have more than enough evidence that Jesus existed. However, as
1) You can't read anything other than translations and
2) You refuse to study the subject and dismiss those who have

I suppose you're left with the opinion you had in the first place.


No. Because modern English didn't exist in the first century.

I read your translation.
 

steeltoes

Junior member
So is Brodie, who was just fired for his mythicist views.

Scholars get fired for questioning Jesus' existence


And it's not the first time:

The publication sparked fury in his order and he was removed from his post at the Dominican Biblical Institute in Limerick, which he helped set up.





According to documents seen by the Irish Sun, the veteran scholar was also banned from any lecturing, teaching or writing while a probe is under

http://www.thesun.ie/irishsol/homepage/news/4754775/Pulpit-Fiction.html
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
Scholars get fired for questioning Jesus' existence


And it's not the first time:

The publication sparked fury in his order and he was removed from his post at the Dominican Biblical Institute in Limerick, which he helped set up.





According to documents seen by the Irish Sun, the veteran scholar was also banned from any lecturing, teaching or writing while a probe is under http://http://www.thesun.ie/irishsol/homepage/news/4754775/Pulpit-Fiction.html


He did not get fired from being a scholar.

He got fired because he was hired to do a job and now refuses to do it.


When the smoke clears from him not doing what he was hired to do, he will be able to continue his historical work.



This is no different then me not being hired to be a priest, and then claiming bias because of my atheistic views. :cool:
 

steeltoes

Junior member
He did not get fired from being a scholar.

He got fired because he was hired to do a job and now refuses to do it.


When the smoke clears from him not doing what he was hired to do, he will be able to continue his historical work.



This is no different then me not being hired to be a priest, and then claiming bias because of my atheistic views. :cool:

A TOP priest has been forced to quit a Bible-teaching job after writing a book claiming Jesus did not exist.

Pulpit Fiction | The Sun |Irish News
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Of course that is why he was fired, and Paul met the brother of Jesus.


The debate of the term "brother" is only one aspect. The case for a HJ does not hinge on such findings.

Before I studied this field, I was like you and made the same exact claims. Now im middle of the road. The only reason for this is I dont trust Paul. I think his claim is for meeting the biological brother though, how much historicity that claim carries, is another topic.
 

steeltoes

Junior member
The debate of the term "brother" is only one aspect. The case for a HJ does not hinge on such findings.

Before I studied this field, I was like you and made the same exact claims. Now im middle of the road. The only reason for this is I dont trust Paul. I think his claim is for meeting the biological brother though, how much historicity that claim carries, is another topic.

I haven't made any claims, I have no way of knowing since it appears that no one that wrote about Jesus ever met the guy. Experts in the many fields and the ancient languages tell us that Paul met the brother of Jesus and that that's not necessarily the case at all. So what do I know? Maybe when the experts agree on something.
 
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AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
Is that true?

Well, it's true to me. I can't say if it's true to you.

Why would Romans create a diety out of one of their oppressed Jewish peasants?

I don't know that Mark was Roman. If he was, he might have written his book for any number of reasons. By the time Constantine embraced Christianity, what choice did he have? He wanted to unify the empire theologically, and Christianity was probably the best bet at the time for that.

Why do the gospels in gerneral only deal with the last week of his life? would it be that is all they knew because the majority of oral tradition only witnessed this part of the legend surrounding passover?

Could be. It could also be that the Passion makes for the best story. It's the high drama.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Biblical scholars are profoundly biased toward an historical Jesus. How could they not be?
Because not all are Christian, or even religious? And they aren't the only ones writing about the historical Jesus?

They seem unable to remove themselves from the cultural assumption that Jesus was historical.

And you've read what works from these scholars to base your understanding of them on?

Heck, I've had historical supporters argue that humans have no need for heroes and that Jesus isn't presented as a hero figure. If such scholars know so little about the human heart, about what drives us, how can they ever form a good opinion about the historicity of Jesus -- even if they can conjugate exotic verbs in ancient Greek?

Well, for starters, we can hope that most of them have abandoned the Jungian pseudoscience bunk that guys like Campbell ate up and which literary theoriest can't seem to shake, but which is based upon archetypes long rejected as not only theoretically unsound, but also empircally unsupportable. Thankfully, most historians no longer appeal to this psychobabble (any more than psychologists do).

Me, I'm not affected by the cultural assumption.
So you're the one.


If you would answer, I might be convinced to change my opinion but since you will not answer, I have to take that silence as evidence that, expert or not, you are uncomfortable with the issue and so I am likely right about it.
I don't recall you asking me anything in this thread that I haven't answered.


It's just the way my mind works. I probe the experts and watch not only for the details they provide but also for the areas they seem to avoid. So much can be learned from another guy's refusal to answer.

Perhaps that's because you're understanding of the "human heart" ensures that you won't be content with anything you didn't assume to begin with. Or perhaps it is because there are volumes and volumes dedicated to little questions on this subject, and one can either refer you to them, or write them for you. Perhaps its both (it can't be some "cultural assumption", because apparently you are the only human who ever lived without these).



You seem to have me confused with another poster. I haven't even spoken about the 'quest.' Nor have I said anything about refusing to study what scholars say. I have said that I refuse to accept their words as gospel, preferring to watch them in opposition.
I don't have you confused with anybody. I recall you saying a lot about "what scholars say" but having little basis upon which your claims were made.


Really? So if he tells you that Tchaichovsky was the best Russian composer to ever live, you'll accept that?

That's not musicology.

Not me. I'd rather form my own opinions.

I take it you never see doctors then. And if you do, surely you don't just accept doctors' opinions about medicine? That'd be like accepting biblical scholars when it came to biblical studies! So you must seek out phyicists, historians, linguists, and so forth, and ask them about surgical questions, or about medicines, and other things which they wouldn't have the first clue about. And no doubt when it comes to things like nutrition, health, etc., you in general don't trust people working in this field, and refuse to eat, drink, or otherwise ingest anything without critically ensuring that you know exactly how it will affect you, which you learn not by "uncritically" accepting people whose job it is to understand these things (why sit at their feet and accept what they say?) but through...



Forgive me saying so, Legion, but how could I outargue you on the historicity of Jesus if I didn't know the subject? So far, you have abandoned our debates as soon as I've brought out my most compelling arguments.
No you haven't done anything apart from rejecting all evidence which doesn't support your claim concerning an argument from silence by appealing to the argument itself or a proto-jesus you don't give any evidence for.
I didn't read any of your message past this.
That was your last response that time, while another time I responded and you again selected a single statement to close out with (and didn't respond to anything else).
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
I don't see much in your message which seems to need a reponse, Legion, and since you will not discuss the synoptic question with me, or any other specific issue relatinng to the (non)historical Jesus, I'm afraid I'm losing interest. I'll answer a line or two. If there's anything you want to specifically ask, I'll respond.

So you're the one.

I prefer "The One."

(Do you really not recognize my brute appeal to (my own) authority in response to your constant appeal to your offstage 'scholarly consensus'?)

I don't recall you asking me anything in this thread that I haven't answered.

I'm sure that you know exactly what I'm talking about, but I just don't care enough to transplant my question from the other thread to this one.

I don't have you confused with anybody. I recall you saying a lot about "what scholars say" but having little basis upon which your claims were made.

Still the ad hominem. The arguments to the man rather than to the issue. I'm sorry but you're really losing me.

I take it you never see doctors then. And if you do, surely you don't just accept doctors' opinions about medicine? That'd be like accepting biblical scholars when it came to biblical studies!

So the consensus of medical opinion about a particular disease is just as scientific as the consensus of 'biblical scholars' about the historical Jesus? If you really believe that, well... if you want my reaction to that sort of thinking, you'll have to ask me directly for it. It might sting a little, so I won't volunteer it.

But let me ask you something: Medical doctors are generally "people with a license to practice medicine and who practice medicine for a living".

Can you define 'biblical scholar' for me and our audience? What certification is required for one to be a 'biblical scholar' -- qualified to lend his voice to the 'scholarly consensus'?

"Biblical scholars all agree with me!" is the common argument from every direction. So tell me how we can determine that consensus. Does every Catholic priest get a vote on the scholarly consensus? Must one have published a book with a certain number of sales to get a vote on the scholarly consensus?

I seriously doubt that anyone can offer a common defintion of 'biblical scholar,' but I'm willing to listen.

And no doubt when it comes to things like nutrition, health, etc., you in general don't trust people working in this field, and refuse to eat, drink, or otherwise ingest anything without critically ensuring that you know exactly how it will affect you, which you learn not by "uncritically" accepting people whose job it is to understand these things (why sit at their feet and accept what they say?) but through...

So much easier to radicalize and then ridicule the other guy's thinking, isn't it?

It makes me wonder at the power which Jesus seems to still hold over so many people.

That was your last response that time,

Yes. As I recall, your message was among the worst personal attacks I'd ever received. I had no interest in slinging mud with you or even continuing to read a message with that sort of content.

That's my memory of what happened anyway.

while another time I responded and you again selected a single statement to close out with (and didn't respond to anything else)

Yikes. The 'single statement' to which I replied was your assertion that you wanted to drop our dialogue.

I reponded by saying OK.

And you think that's the same as refusing to answer my direct, oft-repeated questions about the nature of the synoptic gospels? My overwhelming, unanswerable argument that Matthew and Luke are simply revisions of Mark?

OK, I guess.
 

steeltoes

Junior member
It supposedly requires experts to determine if Jesus is historical. Expert translations aren't enough, we need expert interpreters as in biblical scholars to determine that Jesus is historical. OK, let's go with that, we can't know either way if Jesus is historical because the experts can't agree, que sera sera. At least we know about Pilate.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
It supposedly requires experts to determine if Jesus is historical. Expert translations aren't enough, we need expert interpreters as in biblical scholars to determine that Jesus is historical. OK, let's go with that, we can't know either way if Jesus is historical because the experts can't agree, que sera sera. At least we know about Pilate.


Most experts do agree with a historical Jesus.

There are elements that are in complete consensus. And guess what, cultural anthropology backs this up as well.

Stop focusing on the Jesus character. place yourself in Israel in the first century and learn the culture. Unserstand why certain people would write certain ways, and why certain aspects were important, and it all falls together.
 

steeltoes

Junior member
Most experts do agree with a historical Jesus.

There are elements that are in complete consensus. And guess what, cultural anthropology backs this up as well.

Stop focusing on the Jesus character. place yourself in Israel in the first century and learn the culture. Unserstand why certain people would write certain ways, and why certain aspects were important, and it all falls together.

I would just as soon reread what we know about Pontius Pilate. That way I don't need to be an expert at anything, I can simply wiki historical method and not bother with invented criteria invented to flesh out a dying and rising Son of God that Paul was obsessed with and likewise with every interpreter that came along since. No, Pontius Pilate is good enough.
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
I would just as soon reread what we know about Pontius Pilate. That way I don't need to be an expert at anything, I can simply wiki historical method and not bother with invented criteria invented to flesh out a dying and rising Son of God that Paul was obsessed with and likewise with every interpreter that came along since. No, Pontius Pilate is good enough.


No one is inventing a flesh and blood man. Only debating the details surrounding him.


Quite a bit is known about Pilate, but people will factually debate the same exact way as Jesus on details surrounding his life.
 

steeltoes

Junior member
No one is inventing a flesh and blood man. Only debating the details surrounding him.


Quite a bit is known about Pilate, but people will factually debate the same exact way as Jesus on details surrounding his life.

I would say very little is known about Pilate but I suppose we are using subjective terms, what is "quite a bit" to you might be "very little" to me.

As for Jesus, who knows? I get contradictory reports from the so called experts. When I read for myself I don't see an historical Jesus so I leave historical Jesus to the experts, and when they agree we will see what they come up with, though it may not happen in my lifetime.
 
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