Did Muhammad authored the Quran?

[IndigoChild5559]

No. He could not have known the facts in the Qur'an.

Such as?

 

[Wasp]

Such as?

Such as that Pharaoh's body was not lost.

 

[Augustus]

Actually Muhammad stole material from the Jews and Arian Christians, changing a few things around. No angelic revelation necessary. And don't buy the rumor that he was illiterate.

How can you 'steal' that which is deeply embedded in your own culture?

The Quran is clearly addressed to a people who are already familiar with the Judaeo-Christian traditions (much of which is viewed as actual history), and large parts of it are a commentary on these.

A British newspaper opinion piece on Trump is not 'stealing' from the Americans.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Such as that Pharaoh's body was not lost.

There are many Pharaohs who have mummies. This has been known for ages. Are you talking about the Pharaoh of the Exodus? We don't even know who that Pharaoh was.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

How can you 'steal' that which is deeply embedded in your own culture?

The Quran is clearly addressed to a people who are already familiar with the Judaeo-Christian traditions (much of which is viewed as actual history), and large parts of it are a commentary on these.

A British newspaper opinion piece on Trump is not 'stealing' from the Americans.

Judaism and Christianity were not "deeply embedded" in Arabic culture, which was polytheistic at the time.

 

[Augustus]

Judaism and Christianity were not "deeply embedded" in Arabic culture, which was polytheistic at the time.

Really? Why be sceptical of his illiteracy but not this? They have the same source after all.

The "isolated pagan backwater" trope doesn't match the textual evidence given that, by alluding to characters and stories without narration or explanation, it seems to assume its audience is already familiar with these. We also know many Arabs had been jews and Christians for centuries.

We know there were Jewish and Christian Arabs throughout the peninsular, in the 6th C there was even a widespread war between Jewish Himyar and Christian Axum. The Arabs were very much plugged in to the 7th C world of Late Antiquity, not peripheral to it. We know that many Christians and Jews participated in the Arab conquests. We have hints at wider connections to the Roman Empire in the islamic traditions too.

The idea that he simply "plagiarised" some basic traditions and passed them off to these ignorant polytheistic Arabs who didn't know they had been "stolen" is not very plausible to me.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Really? Why be sceptical of his illiteracy but not this? They have the same source after all.

The "isolated pagan backwater" trope doesn't match the textual evidence given that, by alluding to characters and stories without narration or explanation, it seems to assume its audience is already familiar with these. We also know many Arabs had been jews and Christians for centuries.

We know there were Jewish and Christian Arabs throughout the peninsular, in the 6th C there was even a widespread war between Jewish Himyar and Christian Axum. The Arabs were very much plugged in to the 7th C world of Late Antiquity, not peripheral to it. We know that many Christians and Jews participated in the Arab conquests. We have hints at wider connections to the Roman Empire in the islamic traditions too.

The idea that he simply "plagiarised" some basic traditions and passed them off to these ignorant polytheistic Arabs who didn't know they had been "stolen" is not very plausible to me.

It's like saying that there are Americans that are Jews, Muslims, and Buddhists. Sure, that's true, but they are in the minority and their religions don't form the underlying assumptions of the culture.

In the same way, Christianity and Judaism were minority religions in pre-Muslim Arabia. The culture was that of polytheism. In a thousand ways that people didn't even notice, polytheism influenced thought. Islam was a not just a religious revolution, but a cultural revolution as well.

 

[sooda]

Judaism and Christianity were not "deeply embedded" in Arabic culture, which was polytheistic at the time.

Muhammed was a caravan manager so he had traveled all over the region and no doubt had talked with Christians and Jews. Also there were Nestorian Christians in Arabia.. in Najran and Tarout.. IN fact the Nestorians had a Bishopric there.

 

[Wasp]

Sure, that's true, but they are in the minority and their religions don't form the underlying assumptions of the culture.

It's not like Christianity forms the underlying assumptions of the cultures in countries where majority are Christians.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It's not like Christianity forms the underlying assumptions of the cultures in countries where majority are Christians.

Sure it does. In a thousand unconscious ways.

 

[Augustus]

In the same way, Christianity and Judaism were minority religions in pre-Muslim Arabia. The culture was that of polytheism. In a thousand ways that people didn't even notice, polytheism influenced thought. Islam was a not just a religious revolution, but a cultural revolution as well.

Were they? The Southern Arabian historical record for polytheism disappears around 3rd-4th C iirc. Northern Arabs had been Christian for centuries (Ghassanids, Lahkmids, etc). Many Arabs were traders, or served in the Roman/Persian militaries, so were exposed to their cultures.

Why do you take this part of the Islamic tradition as fact, but reject other parts such as Muhammad's illiteracy which seems to serve a similar theological purpose?

Why do you think the Quran assumes its audience is familiar with many Biblical/para-Biblical narratives if they were just ignorant pagans?

 

[Earthtank]

When you read about the history of Muhammad and Islam inevitably you are going to stop at certain points, scratch your head and think, wait a minute, that doesn't seem right.
That doesn't seem, right? or should I have said that doesn't seem convincing?
It is my understanding that Muhammad received the revelations from an unidentified voice while in the cave.
Muhammad didn't know who was the one giving him the revelations and the voice giving the revelations didn't identify himself.
Muhammad told Khadijah about it and both told what had happened to Khadijah's cousin Wahraka ibn Nawfaal.
Wahraka ibn Nawfaal was a converted Christian so obviously he knew a lot about Christianity and the Gospels. He knew about the Christian "Angel Gabriel".
Basically Wahraka ibn Nawfaal put in Muhammad's head that he was a prophet, that the one giving him the revelations was Angel Gabriel and that the revelations were from Allah.
Is it possible that Muhammad took advantage of the situation and ran with it?
Is it possible that Muhammad is the real author of the Quran?
There are many revelations that are very suspicious and seem to be addressed with the sole purpose of benefitting Muhammad.
Why didn't Angel Gabriel identified himself and explained the revelations were from Allah?
Anyway, this is all my personal thinking and my personal reasons why I have a problem believing in Islam.

You are right, "that doesn't seem right" because you have your facts all wrong. Seems you are one of those google agnostic Islamic scholars. Also, its ironic how for an agnostic you actually have an opinion on this.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Were they? The Southern Arabian historical record for polytheism disappears around 3rd-4th C iirc. Northern Arabs had been Christian for centuries (Ghassanids, Lahkmids, etc). Many Arabs were traders, or served in the Roman/Persian militaries, so were exposed to their cultures.

Why do you take this part of the Islamic tradition as fact, but reject other parts such as Muhammad's illiteracy which seems to serve a similar theological purpose?

Why do you think the Quran assumes its audience is familiar with many Biblical/para-Biblical narratives if they were just ignorant pagans?

I studied under Dr. Robert Eisenman at Cal State University Long Beach, an expert in the field. I listened to his lectures and read the sources he gave us.

 

[Augustus]

I studied under Dr. Robert Eisenman at Cal State University Long Beach, an expert in the field. I listened to his lectures and read the sources he gave us.

Never heard of him And other far more eminent experts would disagree with him on this.

Ignoring an appeal to authority though, why do you think the Quran assumes its audience is familiar with many Biblical/para-Biblical narratives if they were just ignorant pagans? It would be a bit strange to allude to stories which your audience are completely ignorant of to make subtle theological points after all.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Never heard of him And other far more eminent experts would disagree with him on this.

Ignoring an appeal to authority though, why do you think the Quran assumes its audience is familiar with many Biblical/para-Biblical narratives if they were just ignorant pagans? It would be a bit strange to allude to stories which your audience are completely ignorant of to make subtle theological points after all.

I don't know that it does. It didn't seem that way when I read it. But then, I'm so familiar that it may have gone over my head, in all fairness. Still I must say that it seemed to me that the Quran taught the stories.

 

[Augustus]

I don't know that it does. It didn't seem that way when I read it. But then, I'm so familiar that it may have gone over my head, in all fairness. Still I must say that it seemed to me that the Quran taught the stories.

A couple of views:


Even a brief perusal of the Arabic Qurʾān is sufficient to convince the first-time reader that the text presumes a high degree of scriptural literacy on the part of its audience. In it there are frequent references to biblical patriarchs, prophets, and other gures of Late Antique, Jewish, and Christian religious lore. One hears of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, David, Solomon, Job, and Jonah, among others from the Hebrew Bible. Similarly, one reads of Jesus, Mary, Zecharaiah, John the Baptist, and Jesus’ disciples from the New Testament, but no mention of Paul and his epistles. What is more, there are numerous echoes in the Qurʾān of non- biblical, Jewish and Christian traditions, some of them otherwise found in so-called apocryphal or pseudepigraphic biblical texts. So prominent is this scriptural material in the body of the Islamic scripture that one twentieth- century Western scholar of Islam was prompted to speak of the Qurʾān as “a truncated, Arabic edition of the Bible.” But in fact the Qurʾān is much more than just an evocation of earlier biblical narratives; it incorporates the recollection of those earlier scriptures into its own call to belief, to Islam and its proper observance, as it says, in good, clarifying Arabic" S. Griffiths - The Bible in Arabic


"In surah 11 (Hūd), the Qurʾan refers to messengers (rusul) who come to Abraham and give him the good news of the promised birth of a son and a grandson (vv 69 ) Immediately thereafter (vv 77 ), the text refers to messengers, apparently the same messengers, who come to warn Lot of the destruction of his people is narrative sequence, of course, accords with Genesis 18–19 Yet the quality of the narrative is quite different in the Qurʾan. The Bible provides a detailed story, beginning with Gen 18:1–2: “Yahweh appeared to him at the oak of Mamre while he was sitting by the entrance of the tent during the hottest part of the day He looked up, and there he saw three men standing near him. The Qurʾan, on the other hand, provides only allusions It mentions neither the oak of Mamre nor a tent, nor the heat of the day, nor does it specify the number of messengers at three evidently, the Qurʾan is not borrowing or retelling the biblical story, but rather commenting on it

Accordingly, there is a distinctly homiletic feel to this passage It is all carefully rhymed, according to the fāṣila of a penultimate -ī or -ū It is interrupted on several occasions with pious reminders, such as verse 73, when the messengers ask, “Do you wonder at God’s command? May the mercy and blessings of God be upon you, o people of the house surely he is praise- worthy and glorious" even the very substance of the story seems to be remolded by the homiletic goals of the author"

(Reading the Quran as homily: the case of Sarah's laughter
Gabriel Said Reynolds )

Another case is the Qur’an’s reference to the laughter of Sarah (a name that does not appear in the text; the only woman given a name in the Qur’an is Mary). In Genesis, Sarah laughs after she hears the annunciation of Isaac’s birth, but the Qur’an refers to her laughter first. Accordingly, Muslim commentators struggle to explain why she laughed. One famous commentator, the tenth-century al-Tabari, wonders if she laughed out of frustration when the visitors would not eat the food she prepared or if she laughed out of relief when she realized that the visitors did not have the habits of the Sodomites. [Aṭ-Ṭabarī(d 310/923), for example, provides six different, and mutually exclusive, explanations for the laughter, proposing one thereof as “more correct,” but not ruling out the others Abū Isḥāq ath- aʿlabī (d 427/1036) also offers six different explanations. Fakhr ad-Dīn ar-Rāzī (d 606/1209) lists nine.]Yet the reader who knows the Bible will understand that Sarah laughed out of surprise at the promise of a son in her old age, even if the Qur’an—for the sake of a rhyme in Arabic—reports these events in reverse order.

 

[Raymann]

You are right, "that doesn't seem right" because you have your facts all wrong. Seems you are one of those google agnostic Islamic scholars. Also, its ironic how for an agnostic you actually have an opinion on this.

What facts I have wrong?
Being agnostic only means God hasn't been proven to me.
I grew up Catholic so I know all about religions.
I have an opinion because most people on this planet are religious whether I like it or not.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

No. He could not have known the facts in the Qur'an.

What "facts"?
Like being totally wrong about where sperm comes from?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Did Muhammad author the Quran?

No, it is impossible for a human being to Author Quran.

You determined this, how?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

A simple question:
Has one tried to read Quran from cover to cover to form one's own experience with Quran*, please?

Regards
_________
*as envisaged in Posts #116 paarsurrey, Post #1219 paarsurrey

I have. Right after I did the same with the bible. I was 17-18 at the time. So a good 20 years ago.