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Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?
- Thread starter The Sum of Awe
- Start date
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
:tigger:
Connie Sue
Member
Can please someone answer my question??
If Jesus(p) is god and he took your sins as his burden, then hes soul took the burden since the soul carries the burden. Now according to the biblical teachings a soul cannot die but lets say in sack of argument hes soul did die, then God died and if hes soul didn't die the burdens are still there.
A good explanation please.. By sojourner
What biblical teachings makes you think that the soul of man doesn't die?
Connie Sue (I got to go out for a few but will be back, later).
1robin
Christian/Baptist
F0uad I have answered you in depth before about this. I will do so in a short answer here. If you tell me what it is that is stopping you from understanding what I say I will clarify.
There are two meanings for death in the bible: 1. Physical death of the body. 2. Spiritual death meaning separation from the father.
Jesus suffered no 1 however this does not stop us from physically dyeing. So this is not the one where he payed the price instead of us.
Jesus also suffered no 2: He was spiritually separated from the father (hell). This is obviously the one where Jesus paid the price so we don't have to.
We all still physically die but as a born again Christian we do not suffer separation from God (hell) that we deserve because we have sinned.
I know you don't like this idea but I can't understand your confusion concerning it.
If you want an in depth Greek referenced long explanation I will try and provide it.
I found a post where you responded to a statement of mine:
That statement was given in the context of a reply to someone else who said that God couldn't do that. I said mine could. It was not meant to address your question.
F0uad
Well-Known Member
It was never in-depth nor did it make any sense.
Number one doesn't changes the fact that the burdens relies on the soul and not body.
Number two if the father is separated from the son then the son is no longer god and he god didn't took away your sins.
Makes no sense
How does this have anything to do with what i have said please read it carefully..
Its not that i don't like your comments or explantions but it makes no sense and it didn't address of what i have said.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
It's a bowl spit question. It follows no applicable theology. God doesn't have a "soul." I don't believe God carries our sin.
Since the Bible tells us that we shall live eternally, it is assumed that includes our soul.
F0uad
Well-Known Member
This is the only solution i can think off.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I believe God dispenses with our sin.
F0uad
Well-Known Member
In what way if i may ask can you also elaborate maybe with some scriptural reference's or teachings?
Connie Sue
Member
I haven't really giving it much thought wheather God has a soul or not, but he lives!
Man is mortal, meaning he can die! James says that the body is dead without the spirit. When man dies his spirit/soul separates from the body. The spirit of man goes back to God and awaits the resurrection of the dead, then the spirit of man dies too, Right? Both the just and the unjust will raise from the died. The body of man returns to the dust.
God sent his Son to die for the sins of the whole world, but in order for man to be free of sin he has to be obedient to the word of God! Jesus is the author of salvation to them that obey him.
idea
Question Everything
There is a story that explained the atonement to me, here it is if anyone else is in case anyone else finds it understandable:
from Skousen:
“There was a boy fighting in the Union Forces. 19 years old. Went to sleep on guard duty. And the opposition broke through and wiped out a whole flank of the army. Several hundred were killed, including some of the best friends of this young man. But he survived. Court-martialed. Sentenced to die. He expected to die. He thought it was only just that he die. And president Lincoln was ready to sign his death warrant for his execution and a little mother appears on the scene.
She says, “President Lincoln, when this war started, I had a husband and six sons. First I lost my husband, and one by one I lost five of my sons. Now I only have one son left and he’s sentenced to be executed with a firing squad because he went to sleep. He feels awfully badly, he lost some of his best friends and he expects to die. President Lincoln, I’m not asking for the sparing of this boy’s life for his sake, but for his mother’s sake. He’s all I have left. For my sake could you spare him?” President Lincoln said, “For your sake, little mother, I will spare him.” And as far as I know President Lincoln was never criticized for that decision.”
[FONT="]The reason that president [/FONT][FONT="]Lincoln[/FONT][FONT="] was not criticized for letting the 19yo off the hook was because a great sacrifice had been made. It was no longer about what the 19yo did, it was now about the sacrifice that was made by his mother. Like this little mother, our Heavenly Father has made a infinite and eternal sacrifice – He has given His only begotten Son that we might live. Justice demands that Heavenly Father be compensated for His great sacrifice, just as justice demanded that the little mother be compensated for her loss. [/FONT]
Anyways, if that makes sense to anyone? The atonement satisfies the demands of Justice, Jesus took our sins upon himself through feeling our pains, but I do not think his robes are soiled by our misdeeds.
from Skousen:
“There was a boy fighting in the Union Forces. 19 years old. Went to sleep on guard duty. And the opposition broke through and wiped out a whole flank of the army. Several hundred were killed, including some of the best friends of this young man. But he survived. Court-martialed. Sentenced to die. He expected to die. He thought it was only just that he die. And president Lincoln was ready to sign his death warrant for his execution and a little mother appears on the scene.
She says, “President Lincoln, when this war started, I had a husband and six sons. First I lost my husband, and one by one I lost five of my sons. Now I only have one son left and he’s sentenced to be executed with a firing squad because he went to sleep. He feels awfully badly, he lost some of his best friends and he expects to die. President Lincoln, I’m not asking for the sparing of this boy’s life for his sake, but for his mother’s sake. He’s all I have left. For my sake could you spare him?” President Lincoln said, “For your sake, little mother, I will spare him.” And as far as I know President Lincoln was never criticized for that decision.”
[FONT="]The reason that president [/FONT][FONT="]Lincoln[/FONT][FONT="] was not criticized for letting the 19yo off the hook was because a great sacrifice had been made. It was no longer about what the 19yo did, it was now about the sacrifice that was made by his mother. Like this little mother, our Heavenly Father has made a infinite and eternal sacrifice – He has given His only begotten Son that we might live. Justice demands that Heavenly Father be compensated for His great sacrifice, just as justice demanded that the little mother be compensated for her loss. [/FONT]
Anyways, if that makes sense to anyone? The atonement satisfies the demands of Justice, Jesus took our sins upon himself through feeling our pains, but I do not think his robes are soiled by our misdeeds.
F0uad
Well-Known Member
Idea just a quick note the verse that implies that Jesus(p) is the begotten son was a interpolations, what is removed from the Greek Bible and newer translations. The only ''Begotten'' son verse is that of David(p).
Ill keep asking this till there is a reasonable answer:
Ill keep asking this till there is a reasonable answer:
Originally Posted by F0uad
Can please someone answer my question??
If Jesus(p) is god and he took your sins as his burden, then hes soul took the burden since the soul carries the burden. Now according to the biblical teachings a soul cannot die but lets say in sack of argument hes soul did die, then God died and if hes soul didn't die the burdens are still there.
A good explanation please..
1robin
Christian/Baptist
I doubt your capacity to allow it to.
That is precisely why I said that his soul suffered the second death (separation from God, or hell)
Only if you first accept the concept of trinity and then redefine it and establish your own rules of what can or cannot be done. I do not worry to much about the trinity as the more important question is is Jesus necessary for salvation. Whatever the trinity is it doesn't effect what Jesus did. Jesus was separated from the father. The only thing that changed was his condition not his identity, role, or nature. The loving coexistence he had always enjoyed with the father was broken but that didn't change who he was. Many things in Christianity are far above our heads. God says his ways are not our ways. He also said that for the un-spiritual (not born again) person his ways appear foolish but to the elect they are clear. Maybe that explains this. Understand something is a mystery has no effect on whether it is true.
Jesus suffered no 1 however this does not stop us from physically dyeing. So this is not the one where he payed the price instead of us.
Jesus also suffered no 2: He was spiritually separated from the father (hell). This is obviously the one where Jesus paid the price so we don't have to.
That is perfectly simple, clear, consistent doctrine. What about this is it you just can't grasp. It is a fact the bible demonstrates there are two definitions for death. It is easy to find in countless biblical verses.
I was trying to show that when the bible says Jesus died to take our punishment for us then since we still physically die then that is not what he frees us from. It is the second spiritual death that he suffered that he frees us from.
I can't prove it's true but regardless it is so simple and you are plenty smart enough to get it. I am at a complete loss why you are having trouble.
F0uad
Well-Known Member
??
There is a problem here the idea is that Jesus(p) is god or a part of god or has a part inside of god in himself (doesn't matter which one). You say that God ''The Father'' separated from Jesus(p) but on the other-hand you say they weren't separated please make up your mind. Ill repeat myself if they were separated then God didn't take away the sins and if they weren't separated god died.
I have answered this before..
I have told you many times that i am aware of this however this has nothing to do with my reasoning.
Yet the problem still remains...
The problem is that it makes no sense ill repeat my argument again:
If Jesus(p) is god and he took your sins as his burden, then hes soul took the burden since the soul carries the burden. Now according to the biblical teachings a soul cannot die but lets say in sack of argument hes soul did die, then God died and if hes soul didn't die the burdens are still there.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
God doesn't have life -- God is life. When God blew into Adam's nostrils in creation, the word is ruach, which means both "breath" and "spirit." And Adam became nephesh -- a living being -- because of that infusion of spirit.
Spirit is spirit, and it belongs to God -- who is life.
God became Incarnate in order to reconcile humanity to God's Self.
That's not what Jesus said when he began to preach.
Nope. God is. God sent Jesus into the world, that the world might be saved through him. That's what John says, at any rate.
If you read the word "Tribes" in your Bible, do you automaticaly replace that G_d inspired word with something you have been programmed to do ?
Get yourself the searchable ESword program on your computer with a few English Bibles [Free of charge on internet] of your choice.
Then do a search for the word "Tribe/s" and study the context.
By the way can you explain where baptizement began in the bible ?
.
So why would the Father allow the coming "day of darkness" if all of humanity was the/his bride ?
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If someone agrees to pay money on/in your stead for debt , then that person has taken the burden of debt on him/herself.
The Father defined in the "old testament" that sin should be paid for in blood, not so ?[That is avon and hatat sin]
The Sota definition in the "old testament" of what happens to a wayward/whoring bride describes what the Messiah came to do.
The Messiah paid the "price" on "our" behalf and by dying he can/could now marry his wayward/whoring bride[Northern tribes] again.
"our"behalf"> [Northern tribes and their sojourners] That is why I call myself a sojourner to 10 Israel.
I might add that there is no attonement for Pessa sin. Pessa sin according to Torah requires death penalty. [That is why the Messiah had to die on our behalf]
Now why do we still pray for forgiveness of sin ? Because those sins are the first two sins meantioned > Avon and hatat sins.]
Hope that helps.
Please note : The Messiah was not sent for Judah/the Jews.
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Heathen Hammer
Nope, you're still wrong
So you WOULD stone a disobedient daughter?
I don't really think you even understand half the conversations you're in. You just want to disagree, for the disagreements sake. It's too bad really, because in other conversations you occasionally who some insight [even head-to-head with other Christians], but when you respond to me, basically your undershorts drop around your ankles and you fall down any nearby flight of steps.
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Connie Sue
Member
The first baptism to prepare a people for Jesus, was by John's baptism!
I have a search bible and the blue letter bible and I know about the tribes of Israel and how they came about, they were the children of Jacab! But that doesn't explain to me what you meant by your statement "part of the 12 tribes". That would have to come from you for me to have understanding to what you were referring to.
Now can you explain what baptism we are to be baptized with today to have eternal life?