Quantrill
Active Member
No, man will not go back to the state of being ignorant of good and evil. The redeemed man goes forward as a redeemed man. Not as one who was never a sinner.
Quantrill
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Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?
- Thread starter The Sum of Awe
- Start date
No, man will not go back to the state of being ignorant of good and evil. The redeemed man goes forward as a redeemed man. Not as one who was never a sinner.
Quantrill
waitasec
Veteran Member
then why did god keep man from living forever thusly dwelling with him forever (by being kicked out of paradise) as it is stated in gen 3:22?
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Well of course god had to sacrifice himself to himself to placate himself in order to save us from something god himself created.
Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
Just to be honest. It is hard for many to take seriously any argument of morality by a person who has a confederate flag as their avatar. When you are talking about Christian concepts are you not tethering Christ to slavery, racism, and betraying your country for an evil cause.
Koldo
Outstanding Member
This is a misunderstanding.
I didn't get THAT from the analogy.
Rather, I fixed the analogy with THAT.
Yes, and i agree with this.
However to compare 'God is unable to allow sin go unpunished because he is the ultimate source of good and holyness' to a logical contradiction is an error. It is non-sequitur.
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javajo
Well-Known Member
When we are resurrected, 1 Cor. 15 says we are raised or incorruptible or sinless. God said sin brings forth death, so they died spiritually toward God and began to die physically. Sin, not God kept man from immortality and only when we are changed to sinless can we also be immortal, as sin brings death.
waitasec
Veteran Member
gen 3:22 says different...it is knowledge of good and evil, becoming like god, that caused their mortality
waitasec
Veteran Member
gen 3:22 says different...it is knowledge of good and evil, becoming like god, that caused their mortality...not sin.
Koldo
Outstanding Member
As waitasec said:
Gen 3:22 (NIV)-
22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
It was still possible to live forever. God did keep Adam and Eve from becoming immortal.
I beg to differ a little.
In genesis, it is unclear whether eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge caused the mortality, or if adam and eve were mortal since the start.
If i remember correctly, it is only on romans 5:12 that this interpretation is given:
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
In this case, it was not the fruit in itself, but rather the sin caused by eating the fruit.
javajo
Well-Known Member
They disobeyed God, which is sin and sin brings forth death as it says, "the wages of sin is death". The knowledge of good and evil is a by-product. They broke the only commandment God gave them and disobedience to that was the only sin they were aware of until they ate.
In Genesis 2 it says the day they eat thereof they would surely die, which proplerly translated says, dying they would die, so before that, they were indeed sinless and immortal.
Only for Adam and Eve IF they ate from the Tree of Life. That is why it was removed so now they and we would not be able to live forever in this sinful state, which is why they and we all die physically.
Correct. The result, wages, penalty of sin is death, and the power of sin is the law. But Jesus won the victory and paid the penalty in our place so we may be freely saved forevermore. That's my belief.
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waitasec
Veteran Member
how i understand it is, since the tree of eternal life was there and they were not forbidden to eat from it, it would suggest that they were mortal and could be immortal so longs as they ate from the tree of eternal life...
ultimately we are talking about 2 different theologies.
it's just that i don't get how paul comes to this conclusion unless he edited the original theology to fit his own...
"sin" is not mentioned in the genesis narrative...god did not say that he is kicking them out of paradise because of sin...but because man has now become like god...knowing good from evil.
waitasec
Veteran Member
well we can get into a discussion about knowing disobedience was a sin while they were in a state of ignorance of such knowledge...
i don't see this adding up.
Well if god can forgive himself for making us it should be ok. No need for him to kill himself.
Quantrill
Active Member
God did not keep man from living forever by kicking him out of the garden. He kept man from livng forever in his sinful state which would have occurred if he had ate of the tree of life.
Quantrill
javajo
Well-Known Member
Disobedience IS sin. They knew God told them not to eat it and if they did they would die. It was the one sin they were given knowledge of directly by God. Romans 5 explains it and emphasizes it over and over again: (note the underlined repeatedly saying one man sinned and brought sin and death to all. The good news is what's not underlined. Remember, this is the hidden mystery of Christ to Paul and is God's Word and full revelation of his amazing plan of salvation, concluding all under sin that he may have mercy on all through Jesus Christ.)
Romans 5
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Koldo
Outstanding Member
Yes, i agree.
However, what i understood from your last post was the opposite.
It is worth mention that 'sin' can be understood as a transgression of the law or as disobedience to God (1 John 3:4). In this manner, Adam and Eve committed a sin when eating the fruit.
However, i do agree with you that his conclusion that death came from sin is quite strange.
waitasec
Veteran Member
right...the sinful state which is attaining knowledge of good and evil.
he couldn't have that now could he...
ignorance is bliss...a state for which we were intended to live in eternally.
Call_of_the_Wild
Well-Known Member
I thought I was making it clear when i said that sometimes there are consequences for our actions. Jesus died so that we wouldnt receive death, so yes, we escaped the ultimate punishment. That doesnt mean that God doesn't discipline us and hold us accountable in other ways. All other punishments are less violatile in nature considering the fact that we all deserve to die. So for example, if you rob someone, you deserve to die in Gods eyes. But if you are a Christian that just made a bad decision and you go to the Lord and sincerly ask for forgiveness, you are forgiven. That doesnt mean that if you play basketball that same day, God wont allow you to sprain your ankle as an act of punishment. Now which one would you rather have, the sprain ankle or the death sentence??? That is how God works, he is our Father and he disciplines us when we need to be disciplined, even though we all deserve to die. But because of Jesus, we escape death but we can look foward to our Father giving us spankings every now and then for our actions.
waitasec
Veteran Member
english is my second language...Yes, i agree.
However, what i understood from your last post was the opposite.
just kidding...
Quantrill
Active Member
No, God never intended on us living in ignorance. To be sinless and not know evil is not ignorance. Its a blessing.
Whether man fell or not, he, those of God, would grow in the knowledge of God. Unfallen they would not know the distinction between good and evil because they would not know evil.
Quantrill