Did Jesus die and rise from the dead?

[Prince Mthembu]

Studying an artifact will never prove such a shroud because as 2 Corinthians 5:7 says we walk by faith Not by sight.
This is why Jesus said his followers would worship his God with ' spirit ' and ' truth ' at John 4:23-24.
It would be a lively spirited worship based on Scripture truth and Not anything else.

Sir, I'm not saying the study proves its authenticity I'm saying if It's genuine then it can prove the death and resurrection of our Lord the Messiah. Believers walk by faith but do you think God doesn't want to save unbelievers too, especially if they're deceived by the "god of this world" not to believe? We are proving the resurrection of the Messiah to unbelievers, what is it we can point them to as Christians to prove this pillar of our faith (death and resurrection of Jesus)?

 

[Prince Mthembu]

Perhaps, and shown to be a fraud time after time. Some people have crazy beliefs that they will not drop.

The conclusion that it is a fraud is based on the carbon-14 dating and the blood tainted to be painting rather than any organic fluid. If there are any other fact apart from these please point them out so we can address them together as one. Since we are in the season of PASSOVER this is the best time to prove our Lord died and rose again.

 

[Audie]

No, they're not. But I'm sure I can't convince you that I, as a Mormon of 70 years, actually know more about LDS history than you do.

Ya cant convince these people that despite having
done no study, they still really really do no know more
biology / earth history than any scientist on earth.

 

[Audie]

sure we are....

this thread is about resurrection

If the Carpenter failed

what hope have you?

That is a question for you to ask yourself.
Putting your hope, whatever sort of hope that
is, in some long dead carpenter seems a bit
goofy to me, if that is what you are doing.

Just because your mind works that way, you
believe something does not mean it applies
to others.

The question has no meaning or relevance to me.

 

[Thief]

That is a question for you to ask yourself.
Putting your hope, whatever sort of hope that
is, in some long dead carpenter seems a bit
goofy to me, if that is what you are doing.

Just because your mind works that way, you
believe something does not mean it applies
to others.

The question has no meaning or relevance to me.

and you are likely to keep that stance.....until you cannot stand

and that desire will be the greatest of all desires.....
you will want to stand up

and if you fail to do so....you follow your body into the box
and then into the ground

eternal darkness is not a philosophical idea
it is physically real

 

[Audie]

and you are likely to keep that stance.....until you cannot stand

and that desire will be the greatest of all desires.....
you will want to stand up

and if you fail to do so....you follow your body into the box
and then into the ground

eternal darkness is not a philosophical idea
it is physically real

I do not necessarily see you as being much
special as a forecaster of anything, but
I am aware that people die, which will include
me.

I've had two very very close brushes with
death, I am no teenager with a fantasy of
being invulnerable.

As for the eternal darkness, not really.
Dark is dark; dead is like not alive.

I was not alive all through the days
before during and after the dinosaurs.
I did not notice a thing.

If it is necessary to your mental stability
to have hope for things to turn out great
for you after you die, its not for me to
try to unseat you.

 

[Thief]

I do not necessarily see you as being much
special as a forecaster of anything, but
I am aware that people die, which will include
me.

I've had two very very close brushes with
death, I am no teenager with a fantasy of
being invulnerable.

As for the eternal darkness, not really.
Dark is dark; dead is like not alive.

I was not alive all through the days
before during and after the dinosaurs.
I did not notice a thing.

If it is necessary to your mental stability
to have hope for things to turn out great
for you after you die, its not for me to
try to unseat you.

it's not a matter of emotional unrest

unless.....after your last breath you realize
you should have stood up

 

[Audie]

it's not a matter of emotional unrest

unless.....after your last breath you realize
you should have stood up

Oh I see, so this was just a bit of a con-

If the Carpenter failed

what hope have you?

Failure and loss of hope would'st stir
no "emotional unrest" in you.

So why would you suggest that it would
in me, when I never invested in this bs in the
first place?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Did Jesus die and rise from the dead?

No.

It appears all the apostle were willing to hold that belief till death

So?
Mayans held beliefs that made them volunteer as a human sacrifice to appease the gods.
Islamists hold beliefs that make them willing to blow themselves up to appease their god.

People of all faiths have been dying for their beliefs all throughout history.
It means nothing. Except that people can hold beliefs so strongly that they're willing to pay the ultimate price for it.

That doesn't tell us anything about the accuracy of what is being believed.

Watergate had only a matter of 5 weeks or so before the whole lot of em were singing like canaries or incriminated various ways

Que?

 

[Thief]

So why would you suggest that it would
in me, when I never invested in this bs in the
first place?

as you said.....we all die

but hey.....there are 7billion copies of a learning device wandering about

and no one survives his last breath?
no one?
not one chance in billions?

if no one continues....then Man on this planet is a complete mystery
with no resolve
and no hope
extinction the only fate

and if Someone like the Carpenter …….with all of His alleged ability
failed

then truly there is no hope

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

How do you know it isn´t ? We have significant evidence that it is true.

No. You have BELIEFS that it is true. Beliefs aren't evidence.

Do you have evidence it isn¨t true ?

No. Neither do I have evidence that interdimensional unicorns are manipulating gravity. But that doesn't seem like a good reason to believe it.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Actually, The Bible is a form of evidence,

No. The bible is a collection of claims. That claims that require evidence. That evidence must necessarily be external to the bible. Unless off course, you don't mind circular reasoning.

just not the kind that supports what believers believe.

Doesn't matter either way. The bible is the claim. Claims aren't evidence. Claims require evidence.

 

[Audie]

as you said.....we all die

but hey.....there are 7billion copies of a learning device wandering about

and no one survives his last breath?
no one?
not one chance in billions?

if no one continues....then Man on this planet is a complete mystery
with no resolve
and no hope
extinction the only fate

and if Someone like the Carpenter …….with all of His alleged ability
failed

then truly there is no hope

Ok so this is an emotional problem that you
do not have "hope" if the carpenter failed.
It isnt for me.

That you have an emotional problem does
not lend validity to the idea that some dead
carpenter is going to help you out.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

There is ample proof.

Such as?

There is much more to life than material senses,

This is a claim. A claim that requires evidence. Got any?

so no guess is needed, as it takes good logic and good reasoning.

So share that "good logic reasoning" to apparantly leads to your conclusion above. Which at this point is just yet another bare claim again.

 

[Thief]

Ok so this is an emotional problem that you
do not have "hope" if the carpenter failed.

not emotion.....logic

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Love exists.

Love is an emotion. An emotion that manifests through physical activity in a physical brain.

In its pure form, one can not see it, one can not touch it, one can not smell it, one can not taste it and one can not hear it.

Another claim.
What is a "pure form" of an emotion?

Are you saying that this emotion exists externally and independently of physical brains?

But there it can be, in ones heart, if they choose it over hate.

The heart pumps blood. Emotions exists as physical activity in physical brains.

This is the same with our choice of all virtues. The virtues come through choice and not through sight, hearing, touch, taste, and smell.

No idea what this is supposed to mean.

So what motivates choice for the good of all? Some have called it a 6th sense.
Regards Tony

Who cares what people call what.
Be clear... what are you talking about and what is your evidence to support it?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

How do you see that as a material experience, when one give this life for all?

Regards Tony

I don't understand your question...

Please explain what part of that, in your opinion, is "immaterial"?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

There is no self in that choice, it is motivated purly by a sensless love, it goes beyond material senses.

Rumi wrote;

"Love’s a stranger to earth and heaven too;
In him are lunacies seventy-and-two."

The issue may be that humainty has now seen to many acts of self based love in the form of terrorism.

Regards Tony

Describing physical things by using abstract poetic jargon, is not magically going to make the thing non-physical.

 

[Audie]

not emotion.....logic

I see. To you, hope and logic are the same
thing. This explains a lot.

Sorry-ah, I am not about to follow your lead, on
anything.

 

[Audie]

Describing physical things by using abstract poetic jargon, is not magically going to make the thing non-physical.

It is kind of amusing, vaguely, the way people dress
up their beliefs in all sorts of more or less King James
style obscurantism.

I figure if a person cannot talk straight, they cannot
think straight.