1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Did Jesus abolish the law?

Discussion in 'Christianity DIR' started by Natural Submission, Apr 4, 2005.

  1. fromthe heart

    fromthe heart Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2004
    Messages:
    1,755
    Ratings:
    +258
    Sorry...Matt.22:37-40 :banghead3
     
  2. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2004
    Messages:
    16,472
    Ratings:
    +3,193
    Religion:
    Christian Taoist
    You know,

    that passage GREATLY simplified the whole law. For once, we could understand just what the law was all about.

    Galations 3:24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. 26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,
     
  3. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2004
    Messages:
    5,917
    Ratings:
    +471
    The Judaizers weren't interpreting Christ as I have, nor were they making the argument I have. They were arguing that obedience to the Law made one righteous and was the principle means of salvation. It's very different from what I've asserted, and if the Law has no authority over the Christian, then it has been abolished. We can argue semantics on it, but "fulfill" is to bring to complete or bring something to its intended purpose. Abolish means to make of no effect. To say that the Law is not authoritative to the Christian is to argue that it is abolished in contradistinction to the teaching of Christ.

    Christ fulfilled the Law. He gave us the full means of interpreting it, and was the fulfillment of the prophecies and foreshadowing of Christ it contained. He promised that "not one jot nor one tittle" will pass away, and that it will last longer than "heaven and earth." Christ asserted that anyone who disobeys the Law and teaches others to do so will be least in the Kingdom of Heaven. He then spends a considerable amount of time explaining interpretation of the Law.

    As you have pointed out Paul brings up the topic of whether the Law has no authority over the Christian if we aren't under it:

    Therefore by works of the law no flesh shall be justified in His sight, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law has been revealed, being witnessed to by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and upon all those that believe. For there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation through faith in His blood, for a demonstration of His righteousness through the passing over of the sins having previously occurred, in the forbearance of God, for a demonstration of His righteousness in the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where then is the boasting? It is excluded. Through what law? Of works? No, but through the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. Or is He the God of the Jews only? But is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, also of Gentiles, since there is one God who will justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcised through faith. Therefore do we nullify the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. -- Romans 3.20-31​

    He argues the same theology as the passage in Galatians above. However, he proposes the theological solution you have accepted at the end, and he rejects it firmly. He goes from saying that not just does faith in Christ not nullify the Law, but it goes further and establishes it. How can it establish it if it has no more authority on the Christian? Paul didn't mean his statement that way, and we know this, because he repeatedly makes use of the Law in order to prove his theological and moral points. When he does so, he considers it binding on Christians.

    The problem with the Judaizers was that they believed obedience to it would make them righteous and thus save them. Paul is arguing against that theology, but he is not trying to undermine the authority of the Law. He teaches that it was given to be our steward so that it could point out sin, but that it brought death in that role (looking forward to Christ of course). It no longer has that authority (Gal. 3.19ff.).

    Paul makes very claear where he stands on the Law, though. The faith in Christ will establish it. Christ promised nothing would pass from it and condemned anybody who would teach others to disregard it. He claimed to fulfill it (which is the custodian aspect Paul mentions), and He was quite clear on this. The problem that Paul wrote against wasn't that the Law had no authority, but rather, that it didn't make us righteous: only faith in Christ does that. He never advocated abolishing the Law (which is making it of no effect or authority).
     
  4. Dr. Khan

    Dr. Khan Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Messages:
    237
    Ratings:
    +16
    You are free from the condemnation of the law to serve the Lord Jesus. Those in Christ are given a glimpse of the glory in him this is reward and it is persued by love. Jeremiah 31:31-34 is the new covenant prophesied. We enter into the Abrahamic blessing. This is missed by most today, settling for less(religiousity) rather than the great blessing which is hid from those that are lost. Paul said if our gospel be hid it is hid to them that are lost: the god of this world has blinded their minds. 2Cor.3-4. :)
     
  5. Dr. Khan

    Dr. Khan Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Messages:
    237
    Ratings:
    +16
    Jesus abolished the enmity(hatred) created by our waywardness(disobedience) through the ignorance that was in us. Every time we step into an ant bed we get bitten. We are by nature transgressors in God's Kingdom, though we can't see Him. The New covenant allows us to partisipate in Abraham's blessing as we are transformed from glory to glory even by the Spirit of the Lord.:)
     
  6. Dr. Khan

    Dr. Khan Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Messages:
    237
    Ratings:
    +16
    The Old Testament is still in effect there are prophesys still to be fulfilled, and patterns to observe and become, throught the faith that is in Jesus. We should see the ways of Abraham, And all those to many to mention here that should be the ones we should emulate as they demonstrate how to win the victory, as mentioned in Hebrews11.:)
     
  7. Dr. Khan

    Dr. Khan Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Messages:
    237
    Ratings:
    +16
    We are free from the condemnation of the Law, we still observe to do it, though through the love created in us by Jesus' blood. We are new creatures Ephesians 2:13-22. These ten verses I have spoken to myself thousands of times. :)
     
  8. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2004
    Messages:
    16,472
    Ratings:
    +3,193
    Religion:
    Christian Taoist
    My mortgage will also last forever. But once it's paid for in full, I am no longer under it's obligations.

    Do I continue to send in payments? But it's still a legal document. It was not abolished. Why am I free of it??? Because I have FULFILLED it's obligations.

    Under Mosaical Law, sin required a sacrifice. Why no more sacrifices under Christianity?

    Hebrews 7:17 For it is declared: "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek." 18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. 20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him: "The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: `You are a priest forever.'" 22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. 23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. 26 Such a high priest meets our need--one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.
    Hebrews 8:6 But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises. 7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said : "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. 10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 11 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, `Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." 13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

    The new has supplanted the old. This is why Jesus died!


     
  9. Lostinthisworld

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2005
    Messages:
    60
    Ratings:
    +3
    You should not judge me but pray for me, am I not right
    Your quote was ""You hypocrites" sounds like a judgement to me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  10. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2004
    Messages:
    5,917
    Ratings:
    +471
    And the mortgage passes away. This is exactly the type of "fulfilled" Christ absolutely denied He was doing. Christ said that not one jot or tittle would pass away and He who asserted that anyone who transgresses the Law and teaches others to do so would be least in the Kingdom of Heaven.

    The Law of Grace is better. Christ is the center of everything. Christ makes us righteous, not the Law. This passage doesn't argue against what I've stated.

    Why no sacrifices? Because they foreshadowed the sacrifice of Christ. When Christ came, the prophecy of their practiced was completed, and now the Eucharist is done looking back. That doesn't mean the Law is of no effect. We still have the Eucharist. The Law is still in the Bible. Christ still taught that it would never pass away and that the person who transgresses it and teaches others to do so will be least in the Kingdom of Heaven.

    Has the Law been done away with? This passage asserts a new covenant, a better one, but it uses the Old Covenant. It says that it is obselete and will "soon disappear," but it has not disappeared. It says that Christ will put His Law into the hearts of His people, but this doesn't mean that the Old Law is of no more use and has no authority. The passage asserts that Christ has made a better covenant and all authority stems from Christ. The Law still has not passed away, because Christ promised this would not happen till Heaven and Earth passed away.

    It works quite well with the Pauline theology I outlined, and you're also using passages arguing against a position different than mine. The Judaizers believed obedience to the Law made us righteous, but Christ pointed out that righteousness and unrighteousness proceed from the heart. He revamped how we read, apply, and interpret the Law, because we must forever do so in light of Him. None of what I said is a target of these passages, and I don't think the author of Hebrews would be so bold as to ignore the teachings of Christ.

    Again, Christ taught that He did not come to abolish the Law (your fulfillment has the same effect as abolition), and He asserted that anyone who goes about disobeying the Law and teaches others to do the same will be least in the Kingdom of Heaven.

    I don't think we're going to get any further, though. You feel that St. Paul established a Law, rather than a guideline, on bishops and that the Church is in stark violation of it, no matter how I interpret it. I feel you are doing the same thing with Christ's teachings and even Paul's teachings. I can't persuade you, and you won't persuade me, so I think we've gone as far as we can and won't ever see eye to eye.
     
  11. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2004
    Messages:
    16,472
    Ratings:
    +3,193
    Religion:
    Christian Taoist
    It is still obsolete... just like that mortgage. It has not disappeared... just like that mortgage! :D

    If you believe in the law, then why don't you hold the Sabbath holy?
     
  12. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2004
    Messages:
    16,472
    Ratings:
    +3,193
    Religion:
    Christian Taoist
    obsolete

    adj 1: old; no longer in use or valid or fashionable; "obsolete words"; "an obsolete locomotive"; "outdated equipment"; "superannuated laws"; "out-of-date ideas" [syn: outdated, out-of-date, superannuated] 2: no longer in use; "obsolete words" [syn: disused]


    Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University
     
  13. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2004
    Messages:
    16,472
    Ratings:
    +3,193
    Religion:
    Christian Taoist
    dis·ap·pear Pronunciation Key (d[​IMG]s[​IMG][​IMG]-pîr[​IMG])
    v. dis·ap·peared, dis·ap·pear·ing, dis·ap·pears
    v. intr.

    1. To pass out of sight; vanish.
    2. To cease to exist.
    v. tr.

    To cause (someone) to disappear, especially by kidnapping or murder.
     
  14. BUDDY

    BUDDY User of Aspercreme

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    2,031
    Ratings:
    +488
    Old Testament Law was given only to the Jewish nation. (Ex. 20:2; Deut. 5:1-3)

    God gave the Jews the Sabbath as a memorial to His deliverance of them from bondage. (Deut. 5:15; Ezk. 20:12, 20; Neh. 9:14)

    God gave the Law only for the Jews until Christ came. "What purpose then does the Law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made." Gal. 3:19

    When Christ came, the Law was fulfilled, it's purpose was served and it was done away with. The purpose of the Law was to be a tutor to bring us to Christ. "But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the Law, kept for the Faith which would be revealed. Therefore the Law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after has come, we are no longer under a tutor." Gal. 3:23-25

    Some have said that the covenant with the Jews included only the "Law of Moses" or the "ceremonial la" but not the Ten Commandments which they call the "Law of God" or "moral law". Thus, when the Old Covenant was done away with at the coming of Christ, only the Law of Moses was done away with, but the Ten Commandments continued under Christ. But the Old Covenant included all the Law of Moses and the Ten Commandments. Moses said God, "declared unto you His Covenant which he commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone." Deut. 4:13 And God, "wrote on teh tablets the words of the Covenant, the Ten Commandments." Ex. 34.28
    The Ten Commandments were on "the tablets of the Covenant which the Lord made with you" Deut. 9:9-11; 1 Kings 8:9 Paul says in Hebrews, "the first Covenant" included "a tabernacle...the lampstand, the table, and the showbread...the golden censer and the ark of the covenant...in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron's rod that budded, and the tablets of the Covenant" Heb. 9:1-4 Since the Ten Commandments were a part of the Covenant God made with Israel, if that forst Covenant was done away with, so were the Ten Commandments that were part of it.

    God promised a new covenant. (Jer. 31:31-33) It would replace the covenant God made with the Jews at Mt. Sinai. (Heb. 9:15)

    Christ brought the new covenant. (Heb 9:15; Heb. 10:9; Matt.5:17&18)

    The Old Testament Law was nailed to the cross. (Col. 2:13-17)

    Old Testament Law "Pased Away" (2 Cor 3:7-13)

    We are dead to the Old Teastament Law. (Romans 7:1-6)

    We are now under the Law of Christ (Gal. 6:2; 1 Cor. 9:21&22)

    Christ now has all authority (Matt. 28:18-20)

    Those who attempt to go back and keep the Law of Moses and "attempt to be justified by the Law...have fallen from grace" and are "estranged from Christ" Gal. 5:4
     
  15. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,261
    Ratings:
    +558
    It's not often that I feel stupid...but this is one of those occasions. I feel like "understanding" is just out of reach. So how do we know which laws we must obey? :help:
     
  16. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2004
    Messages:
    5,917
    Ratings:
    +471
    That will change from situation to situation. There isn't really a hard and set rule. Some people operate under a sentiment of "If it's not specifically renewed, we aren't obligated." That doesn't seem to do justice to Christ's sentiment on the Law. Another is "Unless it is specifically done away with in the NT, then we must obey it," but that ignores the spirit of Christ's statement.

    Christ gave us a means of interpreting the Law, and all of it contains lessons. It gets rather murky and difficult. I tend to operate like this: first what does my Church teach (one of those wonderful fallback positions in Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism :p). For me, the Church is the ultimate arbiter of Scripture and the priest is there as my guide in applying it to myself. I don't have to make the decisions by myself, but I don't have any idea how you'd apply that.

    Next how does the purpose behind the Law apply (as far as we can discern). For instance, the law against sowing two types of seed in a field doesn't carry much force, because the problem it dealt with doesn't exist. Many of the really odd-sounding laws addressed situations that dealt with that specific time and place.

    Another consideration is Christian theology, which builds on the preceding one. The Sabbath was made for man, to guard us that we may rest. This is a good thing, and we should observe something like that if we can. For us, though, worship and rest occur on Sunday, and the Early Church commemmorated it as the Eigth Day. It is the day Christ rose and the New Covenant was instituted. This is an example of a theological consideration.

    There are also pastoral considerations. Much of the Law has to do with specific pastoral considerations to facilitate the keeping of its ideals. It forbids the lighting of a fire on the Sabbath. This is to help the servants rest, and such issues are pastoral. There are a lot of things that fall under this situation, and it links back into my first point.

    Everything I say will be a combination of the above. It's a difficult and blurry issue. I wish I had a black and white answer, but I don't. I hope it helps some :).
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. BUDDY

    BUDDY User of Aspercreme

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    2,031
    Ratings:
    +488
    I tried to use the scriptures to explain it earlier, but let me try again for ya. Everything that we need in order to live our lives correctly, is contained in Christ's Law, the New Testament. Their is nothing in the Old Testament or under the Old Covenant that counts to us a "Law". Following the Old Law is frowned upon by God (See Galatians). Everthing before the cross of Calvary pointed towards Christ and his sacrifice, and everything since then has pointed back to that sacrifice. His life and his words are what we live by now, that's what we look back on and try to live by. The purpose of the Old Testament is to teach us the nature of God, his plan from the beginning and the history of his people. Following the Old Law, either in part or in whole, won'tsave us any more than my friend Jim can save us. Only Christ and HIS gospel can save us.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. jvi

    jvi Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    122
    Ratings:
    +2
    Jesus shows us how to follow the law. He is an example for us. If we weren't supposed to follow the law why then does Revelation tell us to come out of the Whore of Babylon which is all false religion?
     
  19. angellous_evangellous

    Ratings:
    +0
    No*s, I think that you have convincingly defended your point of view. The goal of good interpretation is to balance the texts. Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law, but the one who teaches people to break the law is the least in the Kingdom, and not one jot will pass away. In light of Pauline theology and the epistle to the Hebrews, I must agree that the law must be reinterpreted through Christian theology.

    As Christians, we must remember that Paul most likely had the entire OT in mind when he writes "All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped for every good work." We are to study the law and interpret it through the teachings of Christ. It is the Word of God, and useful when interpreted correctly. E. Earle Ellis has given his life to studying the role of the OT in the NT... he is a wonderful place to start!

    Happy reading
     
  20. Steve

    Steve Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2005
    Messages:
    500
    Ratings:
    +60
    I agree with NetDoc

    When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. Colossians 2:13-15

    Jesus paid or morgage now it is obsolete.


    It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. Galatians 5:1-4
    I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty, whoever he may be. Galatians 5:10
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...