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Featured Did Christianity Start with Jesus?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Nakosis, Oct 26, 2020.

  1. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Some say Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi.

    Did Jesus teach Christianity or did Jesus teach Judaism?

    Did Jesus intend to found a new religion? Did not Jesus say that he was sent for the lost sheep of the house of Israel?

    If however, you say Jesus did not come to found a new religion, then where did Christianity come from?
     
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  2. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

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    Isn't there a clue in JC's name?????
     
  3. Eyes to See

    Eyes to See Active Member

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    Jesus said:

    "Neither be called leaders, for your Leader is one, the Christ."-Matthew 23:10.

    So Jesus referred to himself as the leader of the Christian congregation.

    Jesus taught the truth from his Father's word in Holy Scripture. For example:

    "He then went to Nazʹa·reth, where he had been brought up, and according to his custom on the Sabbath day, he entered the synagogue and stood up to read. 17 So the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him, and he opened the scroll and found the place where it was written: 18 “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor. He sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind, to send the crushed ones away free, 19 to preach Jehovah’s acceptable year.” 20 With that he rolled up the scroll, handed it back to the attendant, and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were intently fixed on him. 21 Then he began to say to them: “Today this scripture that you just heard is fulfilled.”-Luke 4:16-21.

    He not only used God's word he showed how it is fulfilled in him. Did the Jews present accept the teaching? No, they tried to murder him for it:

    "Now all those hearing these things in the synagogue became filled with anger, 29 and they rose up and rushed him outside the city, and they led him to the brow of the mountain on which their city had been built, in order to throw him down headlong. 30 But he went right through their midst and continued on his way." verses 28-30.

    Jesus fulfilled the law of Moses, but at the same time condemned the Jewish religious system of things as corrupt and evil:


    "So you have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”-Matthew 15:6-9.

    True Christianity is not a new religion. It is the continuation of pure worship of Jehovah God. The Jews were not the first to serve Jehovah.

    Noah was a servant of Jehovah. And only he and his family of 8 survived through the deluge of that time. That means every single human alive today owes their life to Noah a witness of and a servant of Jehovah God.

    By the time Jesus was on earth the Jews had so corrupted and polluted Jehovah's word that Jesus viewed them as sheep without a shepherd:

    "On seeing the crowds, he felt pity for them, because they were skinned and thrown about like sheep without a shepherd."-Matthew 9:36.


    As was mentioned Christianity was not a new religion. It was the continuation of pure worship of Jehovah God. Noah had it. Abraham had it. Jacob had it. Moses had it. Jesus had it. Today Jehovah's Witnesses throughout the earth practice true worship to Jehovah God by means of his son Jesus Christ.
     
    #3 Eyes to See, Oct 26, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2020
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  4. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    From the reports we have of his teaching, Jesus clearly intended to overturn a lot of conventional wisdom, so he must have expected to found at least a sect if not a religion. There are also theories that some of the ideas Jesus expounded were already present among a Jewish sect called the Essenes that dates back a century before his time.

    I have read also - though I can't recall where - that Christianity may be a kind of synthesis of Jewish teaching from Jesus with Greek philosophy, with possibly some Buddhist influence from further East as well mixed into it. St Paul had a hand in fashioning Christianity too. So it was not just the teaching of Jesus alone.
     
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  5. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
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    Which Christianity?

    I think Jesus was a catalyst who just happened to be in the right place at the right time, given there were many such preachers wandering around Judea at that point. He probably wouldn't have been remembered were it not for the resurrection story. Christianity is built on the resurrection of Jesus, if we take what Paul says in 1 Corinthians,


    "And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain."

    It seems to me that Paul was a spearhead in Asia Minor, while James the Just led the charge in Jerusalem, with these two Churches being apparently somewhat different iterations of the faith. James the Just was known as a great keeper of Torah, apparently teaching others to do the same; so if we're talking about modern non-Jewish Christianity, it seems Paul leads the way there, as his practice seems much closer to what most Christians are doing today. By reading the gospels alone I can't find any trace of Jesus wanting to found a new faith; he seems to have issues with the leaders of the day, had a different understanding of some Torah practices, but on the whole his seems to have been more a political problem with the authorities than anything. He also taught 'Repent ye, for the kingdom of G-d is at hand', which means he apparently believed the end times were imminent, in which case, what need for a new religion?

    So I'd say it started with Jesus but without Paul it also may have just ended there, too. As the gospels seem to contradict each other, I'm not sure how much we can say on this.
     
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  6. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    The Greek word "διδάσκαλος" means teacher or master.


    So, in your view, Judaism exists as a corrupted belief?

    Judaism is based on the Tanakh. Was the Tanakh corrupted as well?
     
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  7. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    I am petty sure John the Baptist had a lot to do with christianity. Jesus became the figurehead much later.
     
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  8. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    Religion is what develops after the passing of figures like Jesus.

    Leviticus 19:18 is the antecedent to one of the "Greatest" commandments. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.

    The NT question about what are the greatest commandments and the answer calls up the image of a college professor who is asked a question and who provides the answer to the question. The question and answer are in the idiom of the people of the time.
     
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  9. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Was that his name?
    Or perhaps it was Yeshua the Rabbi.
     
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  10. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    The Godfather started with Mario Puzo's novel, but without Francis Ford-Coppola it's not going to have the same mass cultural resonance.

    That kind of thing but with Jesus and Paul.
     
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  11. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Was baptism something new for the Jewish community?
     
  12. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    I believe so. But i think John the Baptist went a lot further than that, its my belief that much of what is attributed to JC was actually John.
     
  13. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
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    I largely agree, but I think it would never have gone anywhere without Jesus + Paul. I think it would have just stayed a small sect, Essenes or some other group, that would have likely disappeared with the others.
     
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  14. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    Not entirely. It is probably an adaptation of Jewish ritual ablutions:
    "Baptism has similarities to Tvilah, a Jewish purification ritual of immersing in water, which is required for, among other things, conversion to Judaism,[27] but which differs in being repeatable, while baptism is to be performed only once.[28] (In fact, the Modern Hebrew term for "baptism" is "Christian Tvilah".) John the Baptist, who is considered a forerunner to Christianity, used baptism as the central sacrament of his messianic movement.[29] The apostle Paul distinguished between the baptism of John, ("baptism of repentance") and baptism in the name of Jesus,[30] and it is questionable whether Christian baptism was in some way linked with that of John.[31] Christians consider Jesus to have instituted the sacrament of baptism.[15]"

    From: Baptism - Wikipedia
     
  15. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    I don't think Jesus had much to do with early christianity. It is my understanding that JC was more of a political agitator than a religious leader. Possible in league with the fourth philosophy and (this is a stretch) also with the sicarii. Earning a name as an anarchist in opposition to Roman rule of would surely have seen him executed.

    So he was a leader, John was a religious icon. Those who built christianity melded the two to become one.

    Just my view based on study of the roman psyche.
     
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  16. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    not just a rabbi but a nazarite, a prophet, a son of man and god. similar to revelation 21:17





    love is not something Jewish or Christian; so to return to this loving with all your might isn't exclusive to any one world religion.

    yes, so to be israel is it something that was lost over time by israel's offspring or is it something that was experienced by birth of a spirit as israel? to become israel is something by physical birth? or is it something by birth of the spirit, spiritual birth?

    the law for israel was the same for foreigner. for israel there is no difference of self and other as self.

    it came from the idea that change is constant and innovative. it isn't a form. Its an action that appears different in form but is the same in action as called by a new name in the culture where it appears.

    love
    amor
    agape
     
    #16 Fool, Oct 26, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2020
  17. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    It was a New Covenant as stipulated in the TaNaKh. Technically Christianity isn't really a "religion" - men placed that interpretation of that name. Christian was a synonym for being Christ-like (something people - including myself - need to work on)

    So, it is really the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham and Adam.
     
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  18. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    It's a difficult question. To the earliest Christians it seems possible, but later on it seems more a product of Rome and Paul.
     
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  19. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    Believe I have read somewhere, that in order to be called a Rabbi in ancient Israel (might still be true) one would need to be married, or at least it would be highly unlikely not to be. Can anyone confirm that?
     
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  20. Vouthon

    Vouthon Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
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    I am afraid this doesn't really 'work' Christine, insofar as the available textual evidence and scholarship is concerned.

    According to most critical scholars, Jesus did begin as a disciple of John the Baptist and the Gospel of John is the most explicit in affirming that the earliest followers of Jesus had originally been 'Baptists' (in the Second Temple Jewish context of course, not the modern Protestant church!).

    Undoubtedly, therefore, the 'Jesus movement' originated as one such splinter group from this preceding Johannine sect and you're quite right in saying that the Baptist is often unfairly relegated to a subsidiary role (as the 'forerunner' to his far more famous protege), whereas he was the motive force in pioneering some rather innovative practices that ultimately distinguished the early Christians from other Jewish sectarians.

    However Jesus, in point-of-fact, actually repudiated much of the lifestyle choices and theology of his old master John. He sought to define himself, in a number of ways, as a very different 'character' to the former.

    As the historical Jesus scholar E.P. Sanders explained in his much-acclaimed and now standard study, The Historical Figure of Jesus:


    We must note one of the most interesting aspects of Jesus' ministry: he called 'sinners', and apparently he associated with them and befriended them while they were still sinners. In Matthew 1 I . 1 8f. , quoted just above, Jesus' critics accused him of this behaviour.

    Jesus' didn't shun the company of even the worst elements of society. On the contrary, he courted it. Jesus was not given to censure but to encouragement; he was not judgemental but compassionate and lenient; he was not puritanical but joyous and celebratory...

    Jesus was conscious of his differences from John, and he commented on them more than once. The prostitutes repented when John preached - not when Jesus preached. John was ascetic; Jesus ate and drank. And Jesus was a friend of tax collectors and sinners - not of former tax collectors and sinners, which is what Zacchaeus was after he met Jesus, but of tax collectors and sinners. Jesus, I think, was a good deal more radical than John.

    Jesus thought that John's call to repent should have been effective, but in fact it was only partially successful. His own style was in any case different; he did not repeat the Baptist's tactics. On the contrary, he ate and drank with the wicked and told them that God especially loved them, and that the kingdom was at hand. Did he hope that they would change their ways? Probably he did. But 'change now or be destroyed' was not his message, it was John's. Jesus' was, 'God loves you'.

    Jesus told the tax collectors that God loved them, and he told other people that the tax collectors would enter the kingdom of God before righteous people did.


    (p.233)

    Jesus certainly seems to have been eschatological in his outlook - which isn't surprising, given that he was at first a disciple of the explicitly apocalyptic figure of John the Baptist, who railed against alleged abuses of power by the Herodian Tetrarchs in Galilee and the Jerusalem priestly establishment, and would appear to have instituted his rite of water baptism (which Jesus affirmed and continued) as a rival to the rituals of the Temple cult in a process of cleansing and moral reform that would lay the groundwork for a restored Israel.

    Yet Jesus, whilst calling for or prophesying the Second Temple's destruction, appears - if we can judge by the practices of his first followers - to have been somewhat more even-handed and even a bit more positive in his appraisal of the Temple cult than John, although this is obviously contested amongst scholars.

    But he was definitely, at the same time, a much more scandalous person than John.

    Because unlike his mentor John - who espoused an austere, heremetical desert lifestyle defined by asceticism in places siphoned off from mainstream society, not unlike the Essenes - Jesus was adamantly not asceticly-minded. Quite the contrary, he was viewed as a shameless hedonist in his dietary and table-fellowship habits, with his only 'ascetic' quality being a celibate mode of life that he didn't impose on his followers (most of whom, including the Twelve Apostles, were married and thus sexually active men who took their wives with them while spreading the gospel).

    As Jesus himself stated in response to his Pharisaic and priestly critics:


    John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon'; the
    Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a glutton and
    a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!
    ' (Matt. 11.1, 8f. / Luke
    7.33, 7.33
    )​
     
    #20 Vouthon, Oct 26, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2020
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