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Determinism: the holy grail of Academia.

Profound Realization

Active Member
Determinism/r, which is what I'm talking about, is self-evidently not wrong, since it describes the universe as it is.

As I said, if you want to argue for a different reality, get some reputable science to back your claim.

If you're not able to talk me step by step through an example of your 'freewill' in action and answer the questions I asked in #427, thus making the substance of your argument clear to me for the first time, then I fear this conversation can't go anywhere it hasn't already been.

Correct, strict determinism is as I referred to such. Nobody was ever trying to argue against determinism, only strict determinism.

What you're asking is no different than if you weren't clear as to what "hot" was. Someone can explain to you what "hot" was or you can feel what "hot" is. Not the same. Knowledge of something and knowing something are different. The best science one can have is themselves, their experiences, and their own inner environment. Besides, needing another human being to explain another's experience, reality, and micromanage your very own reality constitutes less freedom. It's never been needed by myself to have determinism and freedom explained and micromanaged to me. It is self-evident.

What is reputable to someone is subjective perception. No human beings can take credit or have a reputation if all were determined.

I'm afraid there isn't any further to go. It's been a pleasure conversing, truly. See you around. Take care.
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
But you have not the vaguest idea how one might make a choice using freewill in the sense of independence from cause&effecthaha.

It's fair to say, is it not, that you have no coherent idea of what you're talking about.
First, yours is a completely dishonest statement, since you've been given the argument from the start that biochemistry is deterministic and the brain is biochemistry, and you've never given a reasoned answer to it.

Second, determinism/r describes the world as it is, not some robotic parody of it such as you suggest.

Third, if you want to persist about determinism, it's time you learnt about the brain and how it works. Modern research is reported on the net (I've mentioned Science Daily, which is free) and you keep tripping over your own lack of relevant knowledge.
Yet again I point out that all your examples are examples of freewill=absence of compulsion, and that's irrelevant.
I will repeat your own language. "It's fair to say, is it not, that you have no coherent idea of what you're talking about."

All you do is connect causal links to the brain, it doesn't prove determinism. It doesn't explain how individual choices effect the brain to cause such effects. A person makes a choice, the brain functions because of the decision and brain patterns kick into play. Why does that person makes that choice producing such and such chemical consequences? You can't explain it!

You can't explain it because you don't know. Oh, you can go back to the idea of the brain's causal links, be they chemical or neurological, causing it all, but external stimuli or causes can not be explained because they are external to the brain. The brain reacts, it doesn't function apart from outside stimuli. Oh, yes, put a person is a isolated room and produce stimuli. However, that is not the real world. My example of reference groups guiding social conduct explains how the brain is a dependent variable to social actions. Social activity stimulates brain activity based on "individual choices." That is the way the real world works. People have free will to make an infinite number of choices, they stimulate the brain based on those choices.

Now that we are discussing again. I have sermon for you. ha. ha. You have stated the idea of God being eternal and therefore knowing the future is nonsense. Well, it is not nonsense. How can you explain creation? Do things create themselves? If you assume determinism as the explanation how did the first virtual particle or essence of matter and energy come into existence? I know, the BB. Well, what caused the BB? Again, assuming a time line for the universe, there had to be a beginning. How did that happen if there is no God?

God is eternal and therefore God needs no beginning, but because God is eternal, He is the only explanation for the existence of everything. Maybe you can propose another cause. What is it? Do you know of any examples of humans or any known being creating something from nothing (beginning of creation)? Oh, I got it, the universe is circular, it keeps creating itself. Where is the evidence for that? Determinism as an explanation is a bankrupt theory.

Determinism as a theory really goes wacky when you discuss morality. Was Hitler's extermination of millions of Jews determined without free will choices? If it was, then Hitler was not evil, he was determined. Nothing could have stopped the Nazis Regime from slaughtering millions of people because it was "determined." There are no bad people, there is no morality, and all those people in prison should be released back into civilized society. After all, they not responsible for bad or untoward conduct because they are determined to be that way. It isn't there fault. No one is responsible!
 
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blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
A person makes a choice, the brain functions because of the decision and brain patterns kick into play.
I've asked you this before and you haven't replied:

1, What is this 'person' who makes the choice?

2. Where is this 'person' since it's not in the cause&effect biochemistry of the brain?

3. How does this 'person' make the choice independently of the cause&effect brain?

4. Talk me through an example of this 'person' making a decision, step by step, because I have no idea what you're talking about here, and I want you to show me that you do.

5. How does this 'person' communicate its decision to the brain in a manner that initiates a physical response?
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
I've asked you this before and you haven't replied:

1, What is this 'person' who makes the choice?

2. Where is this 'person' since it's not in the cause&effect biochemistry of the brain?

3. How does this 'person' make the choice independently of the cause&effect brain?

4. Talk me through an example of this 'person' making a decision, step by step, because I have no idea what you're talking about here, and I want you to show me that you do.

5. How does this 'person' communicate its decision to the brain in a manner that initiates a physical response?[/QUOT

What is most important, brain activity or individual choices?
How is brain activity independent of the social environment?
Assuming the individual is in a social situation, how does the brain dictate choices?

There is no such thing as a cause and effect brain. The brain is part of the person who is reacting to the situation, therefore, the person guides the brain. Otherwise, the person would have no choices.

In order for one to understand the dilemma of cause and effect, we must know what precedes brain activity. The brain does not dictate actions, the person wills action or controls the brain. There are numerous examples of what causes what. The individual makes a choice, and the brain carries out commandments. You can measure the process. The person decides to read a book, the brain communicates commandments to pick up the book. The person begins reading the book, the brain engages and reads the book. If you time the events you will find individual choice precedes brain activity leading to reading the book. The brain doesn't command the person to read the book, the person commands the brain to make the eyes read the book. It is a multifunctional process. The person wills action, hands move, eyes see, the brain comprehends and reading begins.

I think the big problem is it is difficult to measure time between making a decision and the person's reaction to that decision, or free will choice. The best example I can think of is an athlete negotiating hurdles on a track field. He makes choices for how his body will jump the hurdles, it is split second timing. As he proceeds down the track, his thoughts for jumping the hurdles communicate muscle actions to jump each hurdle. The brain is a tool for running the race. The athlete's running is almost instinctive. However, the athlete could decide to stop running the hurdles, and just leave the track. In short, the athlete controls brain functions with his or her choices.
 
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blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What is most important, brain activity or individual choices?
I say they're identical. When you keep telling me they're different, you never give a coherent explanation of how they're different.

I keep asking you for it and you keep not having it.

So answer the questions in my previous post, nice and clearly, one by one, and then you may actually have made a statement that can be understood.

Or admit you can't and then we can both go home. No point in persisting with my trying to understand your position and you never telling me, because, I can only conclude, you don't yourself understand it or its problems.
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
I say they're identical. When you keep telling me they're different, you never give a coherent explanation of how they're different.

I keep asking you for it and you keep not having it.

So answer the questions in my previous post, nice and clearly, one by one, and then you may actually have made a statement that can be understood.

Or admit you can't and then we can both go home. No point in persisting with my trying to understand your position and you never telling me, because, I can only conclude, you don't yourself understand it or its problems.
It is not my problem, it is your inability to read and understand my logical explanation. I don't like playing games, so stop pretending you don't understand. It is so simple, people make choices, the brain acts on those choices, and the body enacts what the brain commands it to do. I don't like your questions, they are predicated on false assumptions. The brain does not act independent of social situations or environmental circumstances. There is no evidence for you theory, so why do you keep proposing it? People are not determined by their brains, they use their brains to carry out daily activities.

Again, here is what I stated. There is no such thing as a cause and effect brain. The brain is part of the person who is reacting to the situation, therefore, the person guides the brain. Otherwise, the person would have no choices. Refute this statement with evidence.

In addition, refute this statement with a logical argument, not with what the brain may do, as if it is an isolating entity. The brain is part of an individual's personality, world view, and decision making processes. Why don't you understand?

In order for one to understand the dilemma of cause and effect, we must know what precedes brain activity. The brain does not dictate actions, the person wills action or controls the brain. There are numerous examples of what causes everday social activities. The individual makes a choice, and the brain carries out commandments. You can measure the process. The person decides to read a book, the brain communicates commandments to pick up the book. The person begins reading the book, the brain engages and reads the book. If you time the events you will find individual choice precedes brain activity leading to reading the book. The brain doesn't command the person to read the book, the person commands the brain to make the eyes read the book. It is a multifunctional process. The person wills action, hands move, eyes see, the brain comprehends and reading begins.

Here is an example of wrong thinking on your part. Here is my question.

What is most important, brain activity or individual choices?

Here is your answer.

"I say they're identical. When you keep telling me they're different, you never give a coherent explanation of how they're different."

How can they be identical? If they were identical, the person would not have a personality or control of situations. They work in conjunction with individual will or predispositions. A person confronts a situation, and the brain functions as a consequence of what the person wants or desires, it is called "person choice." As an example, a person confronts another car on the road heading straight at his or her car. The person doesn't allow the brain to go along merrily thinking this or that, the person commands the brain to make the hands turn the wheel to avoid the accident. In this case, the individual choice makes the brain act. How many more examples do you require?

People have personalities, predispositions, habits, moral principles, goals and behavior patterns which make each individual different. Brains are the net consequences of daily activities in which the person makes choices. The brain is the command center for the person, not an independent function. The brain contains individual characteristics related to daily decision making, it is part of the whole person. Most people are in control of their brains. If they have a bad habit, they change brain activity to correct the deficiency.
 
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blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is not my problem, it is your inability to read and understand my logical explanation. I don't like playing games, so stop pretending you don't understand.
If you understood your own case, you'd be able to answer clearly what the difference is between the working brain and the 'person' you say can instruct that brain without being part of it.

That is, you're unable to give a coherent account of your own case, because you have no understanding of it, merely dreamy assertions.

You could explain nothing at the beginning of this conversation and all this way down the track you still can't.

You don't even understand why your absence of compulsion examples are irrelevant to the cause&effect/r argument.
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
If you understood your own case, you'd be able to answer clearly what the difference is between the working brain and the 'person' you say can instruct that brain without being part of it.

That is, you're unable to give a coherent account of your own case, because you have no understanding of it, merely dreamy assertions.

You could explain nothing at the beginning of this conversation and all this way down the track you still can't.

You don't even understand why your absence of compulsion examples are irrelevant to the cause&effect/r argument.
Obviously, you don't know how to read. I gave a coherent reply with examples. You are not honest with your replies.

You need to give evidence for your brain theory. Since you have nothing, you keep distorting, it is what you do best. There is no evidence for brain determinism because it doesn't exist, the brain is part of the whole anatomy, it functions as a consequence of freewill choices. Why do I bother, you have a closed mind on the subject. Again, our discussion is a waste of time. Learn to use logic.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Obviously, you don't know how to read. I gave a coherent reply with examples. You are not honest with your replies.
Let's fix this at once.

Under the heading "Person" identify, or identify again, the 'person', clearly distinguished from the brain and its functions.

And under the heading "'Person' independent of determinism" tell me, or tell me again, why, although the brain is biochemical and thus described deterministically by science, the "person" is free of determinism at the biochemical level.

Under the heading "Communication with Brain", set out, or set out again, how the "Person" communicates with the brain.

Under the heading "Method of Independent Deciding" talk me through, or talk me through again, an example of the person making a decision independently of the brain.

Then any confusion in our communication may at last be removed.
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
Let's fix this at once.

Under the heading "Person" identify, or identify again, the 'person', clearly distinguished from the brain and its functions.

And under the heading "'Person' independent of determinism" tell me, or tell me again, why, although the brain is biochemical and thus described deterministically by science, the "person" is free of determinism at the biochemical level.

Under the heading "Communication with Brain", set out, or set out again, how the "Person" communicates with the brain.

Under the heading "Method of Independent Deciding" talk me through, or talk me through again, an example of the person making a decision independently of the brain.

Then any confusion in our communication may at last be removed.
It is clear you don't interpret correctly. Almost everything I post you disagree because you have a deviant view of the subject. Your view cannot be found anywhere! In addition to your deviant views, you consider yourself to be the final authority. There is no such thing as the brain have such control over the body. Evidence is clear, the brain a tool, it is used by people to conduct their lives. I don't have to talk you through what I posted. Learn to read.

Science has not declared the brain to be deterministic, science has studied the brain as one part of the body, not a control function as you have proposed. If I am wrong, post those studies.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is clear you don't interpret correctly. Almost everything I post you disagree because you have a deviant view of the subject.
So offered the chance to state clearly what you're talking about, you can't do it.

Well, you haven't been able to do it to this point and you can't do it at this point, and since you show not the tiniest comprehension of the actual issues I have no reason to think you'll be able to do it in future.

Golly, no wonder you don't want your 'book' read!

That was my last attempt to get you to make sense.

Over and out.
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
So offered the chance to state clearly what you're talking about, you can't do it.

Well, you haven't been able to do it to this point and you can't do it at this point, and since you show not the tiniest comprehension of the actual issues I have no reason to think you'll be able to do it in future.

Golly, no wonder you don't want your 'book' read!

That was my last attempt to get you to make sense.

Over and out.
What a stupid reply. Sorry, you are a fraud, you have a theory without evidence. We will not discuss unless you present scientific evidence for brain determinism. I am not required to do anything, even though I have presented evidence for free will. You are the one proposing a factious or odd ball theory, you must prove it. Where is the evidence? Why don't you ask others about your odd ball theory, ask experts in the scientific community. I think you are afraid to ask them for their opinions. You know they would laugh or be contemptuous of such a stupid theory. Why is it most people believe in free will, and hardly anyone believes in brain determinism? Answer those questions.
 
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Repox

Truth Seeker
There is an interesting article, “Does Neuroscience Undermine Free Will.” As you would expect, it is a complicated topic, but evidence suggests free will may be a time sequential issue. We are discussing a millisecond of time causing neurological activity leading to ideas and actions. Apparently, it is almost impossible to prove time sequence correlations, but if I am correct, free will occurs in a millisecond of time therefore triggering specific brain activity for choices. Subsequently, related thoughts or neurological activity occurs in order to eliminate distortions or ambiguities for initiated thoughts, urges, or predispositions to direct activity.

http://www.slate.com/bigideas/are-we-free/essays-and-opinions/walter-sinnott-armstrong-opinion
 
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By nature, are you referring to the nature of the individual?

Even if that is the case, that does not mean free will is excluded.

Free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded.

That means I can always choose to do one thing or another, as opposed to having it predetermined that I will always and only choose to do one thing over another.

Making choices/decisions is a process that occurs in the brain in response to stimuli. How the biochemical reactions take place in the brain to make these choices are constrained by the rules of nature that dictate how such reactions occur. There are so many factors involved in any decision that a person makes that there is no way for us to keep track of them all. However, if you had a powerful enough computer that knew all the possible acting factors in a closed system it could perfectly predict the future of what would happen in that system, even if that system contained a human with "free will".

The universe we are a part of is a cause and effect universe. I cannot invoke "free will" and fly to work by flapping my arms because I am constrained by the rules of nature of our universe. Without cause and effect there would only be chaos. Time would not exist. There would be no rules of nature to keep things orderly. To say that humans are free from cause and effect is to say that humans are magic. I don't believe in magic.
 
What a stupid reply. Sorry, you are a fraud, you have a theory without evidence. We will not discuss unless you present scientific evidence for brain determinism. I am not required to do anything, even though I have presented evidence for free will. You are the one proposing a factious or odd ball theory, you must prove it. Where is the evidence? Why don't you ask others about your odd ball theory, ask experts in the scientific community. I think you are afraid to ask them for their opinions. You know they would laugh or be contemptuous of such a stupid theory. Why is it most people believe in free will, and hardly anyone believes in brain determinism? Answer those questions.

If you truly believe people should never talk about something unless they have ironclad evidence to show to others to back it up, shouldn't you stop talking about your god?
 
It all boils down to proof. You have no proof for a deterministic or scientific explanation for the universe. Favorite argument for atheist is science will get it EVENTUALLY. It is a weak excuse. Science will never get it. God created the universe. Go ahead and dismiss the Bible. I guess they were all liars, right?

Where is the evidence for your God? After years of asking, there has yet to be any evidence presented by any theist for their god.
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
If you truly believe people should never talk about something unless they have ironclad evidence to show to others to back it up, shouldn't you stop talking about your god?
Where is the evidence for your God? After years of asking, there has yet to be any evidence presented by any theist for their god.

OT prophet's testimony is evidence of God. If you don't believe, it is a waste of time to discuss.
 
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Repox

Truth Seeker
I prefer to remain with ideas proposed by the thread. I think I have caused controversy because most people don't want to criticize liberal professors and their agenda. What happened to God? Is He buried in the intellectual's library?

We all know the brilliance of academicians. They know things others don’t know because they have specialized knowledge. To learn about academic bias or assumptions, one must have insight into the academic enterprise. We all know it is about truth. In the halls of higher learning, most academicians believe we have no freewill. In academic studies, we learn there may be so many variables as to negate reasonable explanations. However, “educated people” assume everyone’s behavior is subject to deterministic circumstances.

Testing an hypothesis or research question, most academicians string variables like a well-tuned musical instrument, therefore proposing determinist relationships. Taking the same set of variables, some academicians may propose actors making freewill choices. How can we find the real answer? One Academician finds nothing but deterministic relationships, while another academician finds people making freewill choices. In the academic world, the most likely winners for proposing explanations are “determinists.” To make matters even more complicated, it is difficult to argue for positions other than determinism. How can one prove a freewill choice? One person thinks, “I made a choice.” Another person thinks, “I had no choice, circumstances made me do it.” Is that what happens when the murderer pulls the trigger? As for survival in the academic world, one may find their career in jeopardy for proposing freewill choices.

For the deterministic model, there are serious implications for theology. If God determined Satan to be rebellious, there is no sin or evil. Moreover, how can there be holy and obedient angels if they have no freewill choices? If human behavior is determined, good equals evil insofar as actions are concerned. Therefore, the murder is not guilty; circumstances made him or her do
 
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