Determining literal and figurative scripture

[Scuba Pete]

You would have to ask Deut that question. I don't pretend to speak for him or you.

However, it is my "unsubstantied, un-backed, and more useless opinion" that to truly understand any word of God, that you must believe in that God and be open to that God's spirit. A mere understanding of what the words mean is hollow if they can not impact you on a deeper level.

 

[Deut 13:1]

You would have to ask Deut that question. I don't pretend to speak for him or you.

Okay, I hope I make this clear in English, you said this:

but trying to understand any scripture without guidance from the Counselor is destined for failure.

As Duet has said he doesn't believe in G-d, I am simply taking your comment and applying it to him. But, let me change it around a little bit, if, hypothetical, I am a Catholic and looking at protestant (sp?) scripture, am I destined to fail because I'm not looking at it from the protestant G-d? I simply picked Duet because I find him as one of the most very knowledgeable athiests I've ever met. So do you believe, that because Duet doesn't beleive in G-d, or better worded, your version of G-d, that he is a failure in interpreting scripture?

I'm not trying to pick on you at all here, just curious. If that only applies to athiests? If so, then what about people who believe in a higher power, or a diety, but not the same one as you? Do you believe Jews are failures in interpreting scripture because we don't adhere to the constraints of your vision of G-d is my real question.

Again, I'm not attacking you, just wondering.

However, it is my "unsubstantied, un-backed, and more useless opinion" that to truly understand any word of God, that you must believe in that God and be open to that God's spirit. A mere understanding of what the words mean is hollow if they can not impact you on a deeper level.

FIrst, my comment was not directed at you. It was meant at someone who is attempting to argue that homosexuality is a-okay in the bible.

The bolded is what scares me the most in my opinion. You're saying in order to understand a position, you must be a member of that group. To draw a aniligy, in order to understand why I don't put my hand on a stove that's on, do I need to have done it before?

 

[pdoel]

Okay, so you were saying...? That's right, unsubstantied, un-backed, and more useless opinionated words without any source of backup.

Excuse me? Are you unaware that there are many versions of the Bible in existence today?

Let's see, just to name a few:

King James Version
New Living Translation
New Oxford
NIV Study Bible.

There's even a Precious Moments Bible, as well as other Children's Bibles.

The fact that there is a message board full of debates on how people interpret scripture is proof that not everyone has interpreted or translated the Bible the same.

Ever play the game where you have a group, one person whispers a statement into another person's ear, and then you see how the statement has changed by the time it gets to the end?

A book written thousands of years ago, re-written in other languages, translated to keep up with the current languages, etc., is bound to be interpreted differently over the years. The fact that people have abandoned many of the teachings of the Bible over the years is also proof. It's how they currently interpret the teachings in today's standards.

You can call that opinion all you want. But it's actually fact.

 

[fromthe heart]

You would have to ask Deut that question. I don't pretend to speak for him or you.

However, it is my "unsubstantied, un-backed, and more useless opinion" that to truly understand any word of God, that you must believe in that God and be open to that God's spirit. A mere understanding of what the words mean is hollow if they can not impact you on a deeper level.

Well said ND!!!...I feel the Holy Spirit is who is the guide to understanding the Scriptures and if He is not instructing you in understanding all the words of the Bible are meaningless to those who do not receive their instruction on scripture from the Holy Spirit...To try to explain this to someone who is closed to these mere facts about scriptures is like:banghead3 . It's just not doable. The Holy Spirit has to speak to them and closed to that it's just words ununderstood. If you can't open your heart to allow understanding to enter via the Holy Spirit then you are never gonna get it.

Just my opinion on the subject...some of scripture is literal some is by parable and some is by terms of the day in their order of speach...no matter which one who's heart is hardened to what the words really mean/say can never have total understanding.

 

[Quiddity]

I think Binyamin makes a very valid observation. I'm curious as to how this will unfold.

~Victor

 

[Deut 13:1]

Excuse me? Are you unaware that there are many versions of the Bible in existence today?

I'm aware there are tons of TRANSLATIONS, but there is only one Hebrew Torah I pay attention to, the Hebrew. Of that Torah, there has only been a 9 letter difference ever found, and all are like, how you spell chanukah.

Let's see, just to name a few:

King James Version
New Living Translation
New Oxford
NIV Study Bible.

There's even a Precious Moments Bible, as well as other Children's Bibles.

Ugh-huh, you're proving my point.

If you went on to read the rest of the article you'd see...

But how impressive is this compared to other similar documents, such as the Christian Bible? (Both books contain approximately the same number of words.)

First of all, which would you expect to be more successful in preserving the accuracy of a text?

The Christian Bible. For several reasons.

First, the Christian Bible is about 1,700 years younger than the Torah. Second, the Christians haven't gone through nearly as much exile and dislocation as the Jews. Third, Christianity has always had a central authority (the Vatican) to ensure the accuracy of their text.

What are the results? The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible, a book written to prove the validity of the New Testament, says: " A study of 150 Greek [manuscripts] of the Gospel of Luke has revealed more than 30,000 different readings... It is safe to say that there is not one sentence in the New Testament in which the [manuscript] is wholly uniform."

Other scholars report there are some 200,000 variants in the existing manuscripts of the New Testament, representing about 400 variant readings which cause doubt about textual meaning; 50 of these are of great significance.

The Torah has nine spelling variants -- with absolutely no effect on the meaning of the words. The Christian Bible has over 200,000 variants and in 400 instances the variants change the meaning of the text.

The point of course is not to denigrate Christianity. Rather, this comparison demonstrates the remarkable accuracy of the Jewish transmission of Torah.

Kinda makes you wonder?

The fact that there is a message board full of debates on how people interpret scripture is proof that not everyone has interpreted or translated the Bible the same.

Exactly, huge debate on Christian scripture.

Ever play the game where you have a group, one person whispers a statement into another person's ear, and then you see how the statement has changed by the time it gets to the end?

Nope.

A book written thousands of years ago, re-written in other languages, translated to keep up with the current languages, etc., is bound to be interpreted differently over the years. The fact that people have abandoned many of the teachings of the Bible over the years is also proof. It's how they currently interpret the teachings in today's standards.

That's the problem as I see it, if you want to know what the bible says, learn hebrew. It's not hard, its much easier then english. By the way, hows the reading of Dueteronomy coming? I think I've cited 6 different chapters you were not familiar with so far today.

You can call that opinion all you want. But it's actually fact.

You're right, it is a fact that there are thousands of christian translations with not one line being universally translated the same, kinda says a lot about Christianity. If I open Jewish translations up, I guarentee you I can find a line that is translated identically.

 

[Searcher of Light]

A better way to study is to pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened to the meaning of the scriptures you are studying. Historical context is great and so are word studies and the like, but trying to understand any scripture without guidance from the Counselor is destined for failure.

Excellent point, NetDoc. However, hasn't prayer and thinking God has guided a person in Scriptural understanding caused the confusion called Christianity? Prayer has a place, but God also provided us with knowledge and history to learn from. All things in moderation.

All the different translations of Scripture is unfortunate. Its similar to people drastically changing a work of literature such as the Illiad. Only the Illiad seems to be more sacred because it as been changed less than Scripture :sarcastic.

What gives any person or institution the right to think they can speak for God? Granted, every religion will say God gave them that right, but isn't the profusion of confusion a testament to how wrong that idea is? God is not the creator of chaos or confusion but of order. Perhaps it is time for all Christian religions to back paddle and sincerely examine if they are right or wrong based on Jesus's teaches and the practices of the apostles. In other words, discard Augustine, Origen, Luther, Smith, Campbell, and the host of other theologians. In this process, Scripture itself should be reexamined for its authenticity in light of contemporary writings and language. Honest prayer and meditation should occupy the process. The process cannot be self serving or biased but open, honest, and undoctrinated. Once the foundation is solidified perhaps there would be less confusion among institutions. However, the individual will still hold opinions that differ. That is good. The problem arises when opinion becomes Scripture.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Excellent point, NetDoc. However, hasn't prayer and thinking God has guided a person in Scriptural understanding caused the confusion called Christianity? Prayer has a place, but God also provided us with knowledge and history to learn from. All things in moderation.

Not just to differ, but the problem was never prayer: the problem has always been pride and arrogance.

James 4:1 What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? 2 You want something but don't get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. 3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures. NIV

All the different translations of Scripture is unfortunate. Its similar to people drastically changing a work of literature such as the Illiad. Only the Illiad seems to be more sacred because it as been changed less than Scripture :sarcastic.

The Spirit is able to change hearts and minds with or without scripture. It's the desire that determines if or how much you change. Good and evil are in all of us. They are dogs fighting within us for control of our lives. The one you feed will win.

What gives any person or institution the right to think they can speak for God?

God. You just have to determine if they are deluded or not.

Perhaps it is time for all Christian religions to back paddle and sincerely examine if they are right or wrong based on Jesus's teaches and the practices of the apostles. In other words, discard Augustine, Origen, Luther, Smith, Campbell, and the host of other theologians. In this process, Scripture itself should be reexamined for its authenticity in light of contemporary writings and language. Honest prayer and meditation should occupy the process. The process cannot be self serving or biased but open, honest, and undoctrinated. Once the foundation is solidified perhaps there would be less confusion among institutions. However, the individual will still hold opinions that differ. That is good. The problem arises when opinion becomes Scripture.

You have an Amen from this sinner.

 

[pdoel]

I'm aware there are tons of TRANSLATIONS, but there is only one Hebrew Torah I pay attention to, the Hebrew. Of that Torah, there has only been a 9 letter difference ever found, and all are like, how you spell chanukah.

You just don't seem to understand. Think about Shakespeare. You can read his work, but the language, even though it is in English, can be interpreted many different ways, seeing as how the language has changed over time. I don't care if your Torah is written in English, Hebrew, Japanese, whatever. The language itself has evolved over time. This happens even within decades, but we are talking about a book that was written thousands of years ago. Even if the Torah wasn't translated, and kept in it's original language, the language itself has evolved.

We have English classes where you discuss a book for weeks, trying to figure out exactly what the author was trying to say, discuss different viewpoints and theories.

We have this entire message board where we are all discussing different religions, and we all have different interpretations of what scripture means.

Is it your story that you know 100% of what God's laws are? You know without a shadow of a doubt, the purpose of life, what God intends for us to do, the laws he wants us to follow, and absolutely everything that is right or wrong? If so, I have to say, I'm astounded by your arrogance.

We have theologians who study religion their entire lives, and STILL don't have all the answers. I'm amazed that you somehow have surpassed them all, and know for sure exactly how everyone is supposed to live their lives. Kudos to you.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'm aware there are tons of TRANSLATIONS, but there is only one Hebrew Torah I pay attention to, the Hebrew. Of that Torah, there has only been a 9 letter difference ever found, and all are like, how you spell chanukah.

Binyamin, it is well known that there existed what Tov calls a "pluriformity" of textual

• Fixing God's Torah,
• Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, and
• Bible as Book: The Hebrew Bible and Judaean Desert Discoveries

traditions as early as the 3rd century BCE. In fact, the Masorah and the schools(s) enforcing it was developed precisely to stem what was seen as a catastrophic problem. To say "there has only been a 9 letter difference ever found." is to propagate a lie of collosal proportions. You simply don't know what you don't know, and it should be embarrassing.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

In my understanding, Scripture is best to be read in historical context to decide what is figurative or literal.

My understanding is to just read it in context, ie. what is the subject of the book it is from (this is usually found in the first chapter) and what chapter it is from (the context is ussually found in the first few verses).

A good way to study, sandy, is to read a section and ask yourself: how does this pertain to the time period? How did the culture react to this idea? How would the people feel toward this statement?

Of course several good history, culture, and archeology books are needed to help with this assessment.

My bible teacher said the best way to read the Bible is to understand the English language and quoting Popeye said to "Just read it the way it was wrote."

Also I take the example of Jesus, Who, when interpreting the Old Testament, always took it literally. As an example of the pitfalls of taking Scripture figuaratively, there seems to be a lot of wrong headed theology that started with the interpretation of Israel as being the Church. This started because there was no Israel after 79AD until 1949 and theologians had trouble reconciling passages to this fact.

Unfortunately this theology continues because people rely on the wisdom of their teachers and fail to be as the Bereans "in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." Acts 17:11

As much as I enjoy studying the bible I keep returning to the idea that I could spend my whole life just trying to get my life to match a simple book like Philippians.

Merry Christmas.