Demons - Is There Evidence They Exist?

[blü 2]

Correct.

I should have stated that a higher power in each religion is required to remove a demon.

In the statement I made I was only referring to the Christian faith. I should have been more clear.

Thanks.

 

[Tinkerpeach]

But what you are saying is that demons are separate entities that attack you and become a part of you. I don't believe that.
Moreover, I am not a Christian, so I don't believe everything that is in the Bible is 'literally true' and I don't believe in fallen angels.

That said, I do believe that spirits who have passed on to the spiritual world can have an effect on this world, but not a negative effect.
I also believe that psychic mediums can assist people still living in this world to communicate with spirits in the spiritual world.
I have also experienced some paranormal activity in my house since my husband passed on about a year ago, and I will probably start a thread about that pretty soon. I never experienced anything paranormal before this.

I am a paranormal investigator and there are certainly things out there.

Our knowledge of it is extremely limited however, that is why I do what I do, to try and get a little more information.

The fallen angels being demons is simply part of my faith however if you believe in something else or nothing at all they do still exist.

I was investigating one site with my team and went in to a tunnel while the others stayed back, when I came out I had deep scratches on my arm and I wasn't even aware that anything had happened, I never brushed up against anything. Something caused it.

 

[Trailblazer]

I am a paranormal investigator and there are certainly things out there.

Our knowledge of it is extremely limited however, that is why I do what I do, to try and get a little more information.

The fallen angels being demons is simply part of my faith however if you believe in something else or nothing at all they do still exist.

I was investigating one site with my team and went in to a tunnel while the others stayed back, when I came out I had deep scratches on my arm and I wasn't even aware that anything had happened, I never brushed up against anything. Something caused it.

In your paranormal investigations are evil spirits all you encounter? Do you ever encounter good spirits?
Why do you think these spirits are earthbound?

 

[Tinkerpeach]

In your paranormal investigations are evil spirits all you encounter? Do you ever encounter good spirits?
Why do you think these spirits are earthbound?

Spirits are neither good or evil, they just exist. They are essentially left over images of someone who has passed, that's why they inhabit the same place. Why a part of their spirit remains is an answer I'm looking for. Nobody knows yet but eventually we may figure it out.

We use EVPs to hear the spirits (electronic voice phenomenon) which picks up sounds that humans can't hear. When you ask a question of them you won't hear an answer unless you use one of these devices. However none of them have ever expressed any evil intentions or good intentions. From what I've heard is that they want absolution to settle their soul but they can't do it on their own.

This is why they make themselves known, because they are looking for help to move on. Spirits cannot affect you in any way outside of the fear people experience encountering them. When you give them absolution and say they have to leave they usually do, it's as if they need permission to move on. They will often give you names of family members and informing the family members is enough to help them out.

They are lost, they don't know what happened to them, they are looking for answers. It's kind of like they were left behind.

 

[Trailblazer]

Spirits are neither good or evil, they just exist. They are essentially left over images of someone who has passed, that's why they inhabit the same place. Why a part of their spirit remains is an answer I'm looking for. Nobody knows yet but eventually we may figure it out.

We use EVPs to hear the spirits (electronic voice phenomenon) which picks up sounds that humans can't hear. When you ask a question of them you won't hear an answer unless you use one of these devices. However none of them have ever expressed any evil intentions or good intentions. From what I've heard is that they want absolution to settle their soul but they can't do it on their own.

This is why they make themselves known, because they are looking for help to move on. Spirits cannot affect you in any way outside of the fear people experience encountering them. When you give them absolution and say they have to leave they usually do, it's as if they need permission to move on. They will often give you names of family members and informing the family members is enough to help them out.

They are lost, they don't know what happened to them, they are looking for answers. It's kind of like they were left behind.

You said: "Spirits are neither good or evil, they just exist. They are essentially left over images of someone who has passed, that's why they inhabit the same place. Why a part of their spirit remains is an answer I'm looking for. Nobody knows yet but eventually we may figure it out."

So are you saying that only part of their spirit remains on earth but a part of their spirit has moved on to the spiritual realm of existence?

Do you believe that spirits that have fully crossed overe to the spiritual world can go back and forth from the spiritual world to this world through a spiritual vortex?

 

[Tinkerpeach]

You said: "Spirits are neither good or evil, they just exist. They are essentially left over images of someone who has passed, that's why they inhabit the same place. Why a part of their spirit remains is an answer I'm looking for. Nobody knows yet but eventually we may figure it out."

So are you saying that only part of their spirit remains on earth but a part of their spirit has moved on to the spiritual realm of existence?

Do you believe that spirits that have fully crossed overe to the spiritual world can go back and forth from the spiritual world to this world through a spiritual vortex?

That is what appears to happen. A ghost isn't an actual spirit, the actual spirit has moved on, it's like a recording of something yet it does have some semblance of consciousness. Something happened to the individual who died that left a bit of them left here and what was left is looking for a way to move on.

There are no spirits that can cross back and forth, once your spirit goes to wherever it goes it stays there. Once you are done with this world you are done. Once you give absolution to a spirit or the image I've never seen them return. I've revisited many places where I've encountered them once and never saw them return.

Of course I don't know for sure but that's my experience so far.

 

[danieldemol]

Since you are the one saying it, tell us what is "reliable evidence", because so far, I have presented reliable evidence.

Reliable evidence is evidence that hasn't been fabricated or misunderstood.

In my view the Bible contains both fabricated evidence such as claims of miracles, and misunderstood evidence such as ice allegedly being made from God's voice Job37:10.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

But what you are saying is that demons are separate entities that attack you and become a part of you. I don't believe that.
Moreover, I am not a Christian, so I don't believe everything that is in the Bible is 'literally true' and I don't believe in fallen angels.

I'd like to say that I appreciate you sharing your Baha'i beliefs about demons and Satan. It helped me realize that I was still holding onto the belief in them from my old Christian indoctrination and needed to let it go, and it prompted me to reevaluate my viewpoint on nonhuman entities. As I read your posts, I finally realized that my belief in demons and Satan was the last remnant of my indoctrination that needed to be abandoned and allowed to die out. Prior to reading your posts and actively participating in this thread, I had never given much thought to my beliefs about them. I turned to my Wiccan friends for guidance, and they told me that they too held onto their Christian beliefs about demons and Satan when they first began to practice Wicca and that it took them some time to overcome these beliefs and let them go. I had a vague idea of what Wiccans believe about demons and Satan, but as I said, I didn't think much of it until I read your posts and began to participate in this thread. My friends believe that demons and Satan represent the harmful or negative impulses within us and are not evil entities (fallen angels), as Christianity teaches. However, some Wiccans, I was told, believe in external demons, but they are not malevolent nonhuman entities with personalities and the intent to deceive humans. It is merely a means to describe the manifestation of negative emotional energy, which I compared to the poltergeist activity attributed to a highly stressed living person. I also discovered that Wiccans, like Baha'is, do not recognize Satan as a real entity. I find it somewhat ironic that my participation in this thread (with the OP's attempt to prove the existence of demons) contributed in part to my recent decision to abandon my previous beliefs about demons and Satan. I consider that to be a positive influence.

 

[Trailblazer]

There are no spirits that can cross back and forth, once your spirit goes to wherever it goes it stays there. Once you are done with this world you are done.

Of course I don't know for sure but that's my experience so far.

That's what I always thought, until I experienced these paranormal events in my house. Now I think it is possible for a spirit to visit this world and go back to the spiritual world, although not for very long; long as we might measure it in time, since there is no time in the spiritual world, as we measure it here on earth.

 

[Tinkerpeach]

That's what I always thought, until I experienced these paranormal events in my house. Now I think it is possible for a spirit to visit this world and go back to the spiritual world, although not for very long; long as we might measure it in time, since there is no time in the spiritual world, as we measure it here on earth.

Well we don't actually know so you could be correct.

 

[nPeace]

What do I not understand?

What I said.

 

[nPeace]

I don't see how that works. A measuring tool needs some kind of calibration so that anyone using it is measuring in the same way. There is clearly no consistency with how the Bible is used in this way though, even by people with nominally the same beliefs. You can't simple declare something a measuring tool, you first have to demonstrate that it is valid and consistent in it's measurements.

A particular system, involving observation, hypothesis, evidence and conclusion. And yes, that system could be theoretically applied to literally any truth. And yes, that system could be applied to literally anything, not just methodological naturalism. The only limitations are our practical capability to apply it, not the system itself.

I can use a thermometer to measure the temperature when I am but I can't use it to measure the temperature where you are. That isn't a failure of the tool or the science behind it, only the fact that I have to be physically present to use it.

So, imagine a police officer telling a surgeon how to use a scalpel, for example.

The paragraphs that open with "Dark matter is a hypothetical form of matter..."? So if you're suggesting demons are like dark matter (which you keep implying but haven't actually said), you're presenting them as a somewhat abstract hypothetical concept to account for particular observations. There are issues with that though.

If you read the OP, you should have seen that I used Dark Matter, to help persons understand how the description of demons can be understood.

First is that isn't consistent with the very specific depiction of demons the word is typically read to refer to, largely based on Christian doctrine (at least in the West). You're not really presenting evidence for demons as people would normally understand, you're presenting evidence for there being something as yet unexplained to account for particular observations.

No. I presented the explanation for what may not be understood.
For example, why the world conditions have changed for the worst.

The other issues is that, unlike for dark matter, there are already reasonable explanations for the observations you're attributing to demons. Dark matter was needed as a hypothesis because the observations were unexplainable any other way. Demons are presented as alternative explanations for already explained phenomena.

No. You didn't demonstrate that. Remember. You had no response other than to try to ignore the evidence of the explanation.

I've no objection to this "composite sign" concept but that doesn't mean you don't need to present and explain the evidence you're proposing.

What? I didn't?

That isn't how it works. You can't just say "there is evidence, you just can't see it". You should still be able to explain what the evidence is and exactly how it accounts for the observations, even if I somehow don't have direct access to that evidence. This is about science, not faith.

I didn't?

 

[nPeace]

There is no evidence of design in nature.


Ergo, your argument is not evidence, either.


There is zero evidence on any spirit, too.


I told you what evidence is. You commented that proof is not required, I agreed. Yet, what you presented still fall short of providing evidence of anything, according to that definition. Unless you count “made up by humans” as a sort of evidence of existence . But feel free to give us your definition, so that we can commit it to rational analysis.

again:

- there is no evidence of any design in nature.
- there is no evidence of spirit. Nor of any spiritual reality whatsoever.
- divine education is hopelessly circular and question begging, as evidence of anything. So, zero evidence, again

what else have you got?

Ciao

- viole

Just the evidence you deny.
However, that fine. They accuse us of denying "evidence" too, when we say you haven't provided any.

 

[nPeace]

If it's just to share a link with me, I'm not sure why you can't just post it here. Why does it have to be through PM?

Okay. Here you go.

Not in any religious sense. Nature itself is indifferent. Humans can most definitely commit actions which can be reasonably defined as "evil," though the cause is likely internal or environmental - possibly due to psychological damage, trauma, abuse, mental illness, etc.

There can be many reasons.
I understand one that many are skeptical about, or plainly dismiss.
I think the evidence is clear. Not to myself alone, but billions of people. Not that numbers matter.

As I said above, if we were to assume that all of this is true and accept it at face value, then one can still find flaws in the overall structure, particularly in the designs of nature itself and the weaknesses and vulnerabilities of humans, assuming we were designed that way by the Creator.

It seems biased and one-sided to claim that it was "man's wickedness" that "ruined the earth," when one could use the same information and argue that God didn't do a very good job at creating humans. Of course, religionists balk at such statements, since it seems defiant or blasphemous in their eyes.

I didn't know there were persons that didn't think man's actions were primarily and significantly responsible for the ruination of our planet.
What do they blame it on?
Can you give a few examples.

If we use a computer analogy, then if God is considered the original programmer, then demons might be considered "hackers" taking advantage of vulnerabilities within the overall program. That would indicate the program itself may be fundamentally flawed.

It depends on who is reasoning on it.
For example, most people know the program 'Knight Rider', and the well loved car 'Kitt'.
Kitt is a fantastic car, built to do fantastic things... more than a normal car.
However, no one would expect Kitt to be indestructible. It wasn't designed to be. So, reasonably, there is nothing wrong with the design, just because it wasn't made indestructible.
Similarly, because God didn't create mindless robots, but created intelligent creatures with free will, that doesn't mean there is a flaw in the design... anyone than there is a flaw in herbs designed delicately to be eaten, just because someone can mix weedkiller to destroy them.

Reasonable?

 

[nPeace]

I once told you I have an open mind and you flat out called me a liar. Perhaps your POV has something to do with it.

Telling someone something, and showing it, are two different things, as you know. Action speaks louder than words.
To give an example of that... Your words are, "you flat out called me a liar". Now can you show it?
Therein lies the difference. If you show it, you won't have a problem being believed.
On the other hand, if you can't, one might wonder about your words,

 

[nPeace]

As a professional ghost hunter (someone who get's paid to explain the unexplained) I need to add some context here.

There are three levels of paranormal experiences within the spirit world.

First off you have ghosts which are merely a snapshot in time, it's like watching a video of something that's happened in the past. They are harmless and cannot physically interact with you or their environment but they do have a very limited ability to speak, I have many recordings of me asking questions and receiving answers, usually one or two words at most. They are spirits that have actually moved on but not completely and they are looking for absolution/recognition and can usually be sent away by merely commanding them to do so yet they cannot do that themselves.

Why a part of them still remains here is a mystery I am still looking for an answer to.

The second group are poltergeists. These creatures do have the ability to interact with their environment but not the ability to physically harm you. These are the ones you often see moving chairs around or knocking dishes out of your cupboard. They are mischievous creatures who were never human but exist in a plane somewhere I assume is between Heaven and Hell. For some reason they can sometimes find their way into our world and their entire goal is to cause mischief. It is unknown where they actually exist, how they get here, how long they stay here or anything like that and you cannot communicate with them nor command them to do anything. Out of all three groups there is very little information about these.

The third group are the demons which do have the power to physically harm you, these are the creatures from Hell, fallen angels. However, unlike the other two groups a demon must be summoned in some form for it to have access to you. The most common way they enter into your life is through something like the use of a ouija board.

Their entire intent is to cause you harm and misery and they are extremely dangerous. You can get rid of them but you can't simply command them to go away, a person attempting to get rid of them must open up themselves to their presence which makes this a very dangerous process as they themselves could have the demon manifest in them also. This is why very few are able to get rid of them such as Catholic exorcists who have had specific training on how to resist the demon. Only the power of Jesus can cast out the demon but the demon will fight against it and the person which is why a person needs to learn what their attacks will be.

I have dealt with ghosts and poltergeists but never demons as I am not trained for the latter one.

I didn't realize you were in to that. Now I know.
How did you get into this, if I may ask... for example, what experience(s) led you into your current understanding?

 

[nPeace]

I am a paranormal investigator and there are certainly things out there.

Our knowledge of it is extremely limited however, that is why I do what I do, to try and get a little more information.

The fallen angels being demons is simply part of my faith however if you believe in something else or nothing at all they do still exist.

I was investigating one site with my team and went in to a tunnel while the others stayed back, when I came out I had deep scratches on my arm and I wasn't even aware that anything had happened, I never brushed up against anything. Something caused it.

Maybe you blacked out, and lost that part of your memory. So, you don't remember the animal that scratched you.
I'm just speaking from the skeptic's mindset, so, it's not me talking. I know demons are real. I have my own experience, though nothing like yours.

 

[nPeace]

Spirits are neither good or evil, they just exist. They are essentially left over images of someone who has passed, that's why they inhabit the same place. Why a part of their spirit remains is an answer I'm looking for. Nobody knows yet but eventually we may figure it out.

We use EVPs to hear the spirits (electronic voice phenomenon) which picks up sounds that humans can't hear. When you ask a question of them you won't hear an answer unless you use one of these devices. However none of them have ever expressed any evil intentions or good intentions. From what I've heard is that they want absolution to settle their soul but they can't do it on their own.

This is why they make themselves known, because they are looking for help to move on. Spirits cannot affect you in any way outside of the fear people experience encountering them. When you give them absolution and say they have to leave they usually do, it's as if they need permission to move on. They will often give you names of family members and informing the family members is enough to help them out.

They are lost, they don't know what happened to them, they are looking for answers. It's kind of like they were left behind.

You say nobody knows. Yet, the Bible gives a clear, direct answer.
Do you say that answer is incorrect, and if so, what makes your knowledge or lack of it, more credible than the Bible?
In other words, why take your word, over the Bible's?

 

[nPeace]

Spirits are neither good or evil, they just exist.

If these are spirits of the dead, why for example, would a spirit of Jack the Ripper, or Bin Laden, not be evil... or want to do evil, or have evil intent... like demons from hell, which you said, want to harm?

 

[nPeace]

That is what appears to happen. A ghost isn't an actual spirit, the actual spirit has moved on, it's like a recording of something yet it does have some semblance of consciousness. Something happened to the individual who died that left a bit of them left here and what was left is looking for a way to move on.

There are no spirits that can cross back and forth, once your spirit goes to wherever it goes it stays there. Once you are done with this world you are done. Once you give absolution to a spirit or the image I've never seen them return. I've revisited many places where I've encountered them once and never saw them return.

Of course I don't know for sure but that's my experience so far.

I wonder if my friend @Hockeycowboy has anything he would like to ask, or say, on this.