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Deities in Vedas
- Thread starter atanu
- Start date
I think there is but not in the form of a special sutra -- at least not in my small knowledge.About Deity, the shortest answer, I find is here:
Gita Chapter 3
Indriyaani paraanyaahur indriyebhyah param manah;
Manasastu paraa buddhir yo buddheh paratastu sah.
42. They say that the senses are superior (to the body); superior to the senses is the mind; superior to the mind is the intellect; and one who is superior even to the intellect is He—the Self.
Evam buddheh param buddhwaa samstabhyaatmaanam aatmanaa;
Jahi shatrum mahaabaaho kaamaroopam duraasadam.
43. Thus, knowing Him who is superior to the intellect and restraining the self by the Self, slay thou, O mighty-armed Arjuna, the enemy in the form of desire, hard to conquer!
The Self is the Deity of the self, but the small ego-body self has to traverse the path through: Senses, Mind, Intellect and then the Self.
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42. They say that the senses are superior (to the body); superior to the senses is the mind; superior to the mind is the intellect; and one who is superior even to the intellect is He—the Self.
43. Thus, knowing Him who is superior to the intellect and restraining the self by the Self, slay thou, O mighty-armed Arjuna, the enemy in the form of desire, hard to conquer!
This can be examined in more detail from Brihadarayanaka Upanishad in the discourse of Rishi Yajnyavalka.
Brihadaranyaka Upanishad
III-ix-1: Then Vidagdha, the son of Sakala, asked him. ‘How many gods are there, Yajnavalkya ?’ Yajnavalkya decided it through this (group of Mantras known as) Nivid (saying), ‘As many as are indicated in the Nivid of the Visvadevas – three hundred and three, and three thousand and three’. ‘Very well’, said Sakalya, ‘how many gods exactly are there, Yajnavalkya ?’ ‘Thirty-three’. ‘Very well’, said the other, ‘how many gods exactly are there, Yajnavalkya ?’ ‘six’. ‘Very well’, said Sakalya, ‘how many gods exactly are there, Yajnavalkya ?’ ‘Three’. ‘Very well’, said the other, ‘how many gods exactly are there, Yajnavalkya ?’ ‘Two’. ‘Very well’, said Sakalya, ‘how many gods exactly are there, Yajnavalkya ?’ ‘One and a half’. ‘Very well’, said Sakalya, ‘how many gods exactly are there, Yajnavalkya ?’ ‘One’. ‘Very well’, said Sakalya, ‘which are those three hundred and three and three thousand and three ?’
III-ix-2: Yajnavalkya said, ‘these are but the manifestation of them, but there are only thirty-three gods.’ ‘Which are those thirty-three ?’ ‘The eight Vasus, the eleven Rudras and the twelve Adityas – these are thirty-one and Indra and Prajapati make up the thirty-three’.
III-ix-3: ‘Which are the Vasus /’ ‘Fire, the earth, air, the sky, the sun, heaven, the moon and the stars – these are the Vasus, for in these all this is placed; therefore they are called Vasus.’
III-ix-4: ‘Which are the Rudras ?’ ‘The ten organs in the human body, with the mind as the eleventh. When they depart from this mortal body, they make (one’s relatives) weep. Because they then make them weep, therefore they are called Rudras.’
III-ix-5: ‘Which are the Adityas ?’ ‘The twelve months (are parts) of a year; these are the Adityas, for they go taking all this with them. Because they go taking all this with them, therefore they are called Adityas.’
III-ix-6: ‘Which is Indra, and which is Prajapati ?’ ‘The cloud itself is Indra, and the sacrifice is Prajapati’. ‘Which is the cloud ?’ ‘Thunder (strength).’ ‘Which is the sacrifice ?’ ‘Animals’.
III-ix-7: ‘Which are the six (gods) ?’ ‘Fire, the earth, air, the sky, the sun, and heaven – these are the six. Because all those (gods) are (comprised in) these six.’
III-ix-8: ‘Which are the three gods ?’ ‘These three worlds alone, because in these all those gods are comprised.’ ‘Which are the two gods ?’ ‘Matter and the vital force.’ ‘Which are the one and a half ?’ ‘This (air) that blows.’
III-ix-9: ‘Regarding this some say, ‘Since the air blows as one substance, how can it be one and a half ?’ ‘ It is one and a half because through its presence all this attains surpassing glory’. ‘Which is the one god ?’ ‘The vital force (Hiranyagarbha); it is Brahman, which is called Tyat (that).’
III-ix-2: Yajnavalkya said, ‘these are but the manifestation of them, but there are only thirty-three gods.’ ‘Which are those thirty-three ?’ ‘The eight Vasus, the eleven Rudras and the twelve Adityas – these are thirty-one and Indra and Prajapati make up the thirty-three’.
III-ix-3: ‘Which are the Vasus /’ ‘Fire, the earth, air, the sky, the sun, heaven, the moon and the stars – these are the Vasus, for in these all this is placed; therefore they are called Vasus.’
III-ix-4: ‘Which are the Rudras ?’ ‘The ten organs in the human body, with the mind as the eleventh. When they depart from this mortal body, they make (one’s relatives) weep. Because they then make them weep, therefore they are called Rudras.’
III-ix-5: ‘Which are the Adityas ?’ ‘The twelve months (are parts) of a year; these are the Adityas, for they go taking all this with them. Because they go taking all this with them, therefore they are called Adityas.’
III-ix-6: ‘Which is Indra, and which is Prajapati ?’ ‘The cloud itself is Indra, and the sacrifice is Prajapati’. ‘Which is the cloud ?’ ‘Thunder (strength).’ ‘Which is the sacrifice ?’ ‘Animals’.
III-ix-7: ‘Which are the six (gods) ?’ ‘Fire, the earth, air, the sky, the sun, and heaven – these are the six. Because all those (gods) are (comprised in) these six.’
III-ix-8: ‘Which are the three gods ?’ ‘These three worlds alone, because in these all those gods are comprised.’ ‘Which are the two gods ?’ ‘Matter and the vital force.’ ‘Which are the one and a half ?’ ‘This (air) that blows.’
III-ix-9: ‘Regarding this some say, ‘Since the air blows as one substance, how can it be one and a half ?’ ‘ It is one and a half because through its presence all this attains surpassing glory’. ‘Which is the one god ?’ ‘The vital force (Hiranyagarbha); it is Brahman, which is called Tyat (that).’
Vrindavana Das
Active Member
About Deity, the shortest answer, I find is here:
Gita Chapter 3
Indriyaani paraanyaahur indriyebhyah param manah;
Manasastu paraa buddhir yo buddheh paratastu sah.
42. They say that the senses are superior (to the body); superior to the senses is the mind; superior to the mind is the intellect; and one who is superior even to the intellect is Hethe Self.
indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur
indriyebhyaḥ paraḿ manaḥ
manasas tu parā buddhir
yo buddheḥ paratas tu saḥ
indriyebhyaḥ paraḿ manaḥ
manasas tu parā buddhir
yo buddheḥ paratas tu saḥ
SYNONYMS
indriyāṇi senses; parāṇi superior; āhuḥ are said; indriyebhyaḥ more than the senses; param superior; manaḥ the mind; manasaḥ more than the mind; tu also; parā superior; buddhiḥ intelligence; yaḥ who; buddheḥ more than the intelligence; parataḥ superior; tu but; saḥ he.
TRANSLATION
The working senses are superior to dull matter; mind is higher than the senses; intelligence is still higher than the mind; and he [the soul] is even higher than the intelligence.[B.G. 3.42]
evaḿ buddheḥ paraḿ buddhvā
saḿstabhyātmānam ātmanā
jahi śatruḿ mahā-bāho
kāma-rūpaḿ durāsadam
saḿstabhyātmānam ātmanā
jahi śatruḿ mahā-bāho
kāma-rūpaḿ durāsadam
SYNONYMS
evam thus; buddheḥ to intelligence; param superior; buddhvā knowing; saḿstabhya by steadying; ātmānam the mind; ātmanā by deliberate intelligence; jahi conquer; śatrum the enemy; mahā-bāho O mighty-armed one; kāma-rūpam in the form of lust; durāsadam formidable.
TRANSLATION
Thus knowing oneself to be transcendental to the material senses, mind and intelligence, O mighty-armed Arjuna, one should steady the mind by deliberate spiritual intelligence [Kṛṣṇa consciousness] and thus by spiritual strength conquer this insatiable enemy known as lust.[B.G. 3.43]
Taking the translation word-to-word, your interpretation is way off in the previous verse! There is no mention of 'self' as deities anywhere here. In fact, there is no use of self, which you have used twice in your interpretation. Bhagavad Gita cannot be understood by mental speculation. It is the science of life...Science of God!
Vrindavana Das
Active Member
If you believe that 'Soul' is a deity, then you are agreeing to the fact that soul has a form. If soul has a form, the Supreme Personality of Godhead will also have a form.
Without there being a form in the cause, there can be no form in the effect; without there being form in the source, there can be no form in the reflection. Logically, something cannot come from nothing.
Did not know that there was a rule passed that the deity has to have a form. I had already said: Pardon me.
Vrindavana Das
Active Member
Deity comes from the Sanskrit word 'vigrahah'. Vigrahah means 'form'. If you do not know, or even if you know and do not want to acknowledge, the fact still remains that deity means having form.
...
have you heard Brahman is a deity....hehehe
Deity comes from the Sanskrit word 'vigrahah'. Vigrahah means 'form'. If you do not know, or even if you know and do not want to acknowledge, the fact still remains that deity means having form.
...
Thank you. :bow: Thank you.
Vrindavana Das
Active Member
Welcome pal!
'Deity worship', the common usage that we are so familiar with, refers to worshiping a form. That is the reason Brahman is never referred to as deity.
:kissbette
I am happy to see your ego nursed and boosted. You have no knowledge of sanskrit or of Hindu dharma, IMO.
vigraha is form/murti/shape. Deity OTOH is devata, such as deity of hearing or of cognition. And yes. Brahman is the deity -- as saguna. The highest one.
Vrindavana I have put you on ignore list.
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Vrindavana Das
Active Member
That is very rude I would say...for no reason at all !!
My choice of words was wrong. Deity means it is referring to someone with having a form. Like devata, as you say. In a bid to prove me wrong, you are getting confused. Brahman is the 'formless light' feature of the Supreme Lord. The highest one, with deity form, whom you are referring to as Brahman, is known as 'parbrahman' in the scriptures...above/superior/beyond Brahman.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parabrahman
Tum Purana Paramatma , Tum antaryami,
Parabrahman' , Parameshwar, Tum sabke Swami,
OM Jay Jagadish Hare
I would say that is an uncalled for reaction. But it is okay.
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I repeat two posts and add one more to show what are the deities as per Vedanta.
The first and the second are from sruti and require no other comment. It is just noted that the life force is considered satya, the Truth, the brahman. But the Truth of the Truth, satyasa satyam, is the Self - the being. Life force is cognised by the Self alone.
The 3rd one from Gita is, IMO, the most precise teaching of what the deity is. And this concurs with the sruti.
1. The Truth (satyam)
Brihadaranyaka Upanishad
2. The Truth of the Truth (satyasa satyam)
Brihadaranyaka Upanishad
3. The Summary
Gita Chapter 3
Indriyaani paraanyaahur indriyebhyah param manah;
Manasastu paraa buddhir yo buddheh paratastu sah.
42. They say that the senses are superior (to the body); superior to the senses is the mind; superior to the mind is the intellect; and one who is superior even to the intellect is Hethe Self.
Evam buddheh param buddhwaa samstabhyaatmaanam aatmanaa;
Jahi shatrum mahaabaaho kaamaroopam duraasadam.
43. Thus, knowing Him who is superior to the intellect and restraining the self by the Self, slay thou, O mighty-armed Arjuna, the enemy in the form of desire, hard to conquer!
In my understanding, the Self is the Deity of the self, but the small ego-body self has to traverse the path through: Senses, Mind, Intellect and then the Self.
Om
The first and the second are from sruti and require no other comment. It is just noted that the life force is considered satya, the Truth, the brahman. But the Truth of the Truth, satyasa satyam, is the Self - the being. Life force is cognised by the Self alone.
The 3rd one from Gita is, IMO, the most precise teaching of what the deity is. And this concurs with the sruti.
1. The Truth (satyam)
Brihadaranyaka Upanishad
III-ix-1: Then Vidagdha, the son of Sakala, asked him. How many gods are there, Yajnavalkya ? Yajnavalkya decided it through this (group of Mantras known as) Nivid (saying), As many as are indicated in the Nivid of the Visvadevas three hundred and three, and three thousand and three. Very well, said Sakalya, how many gods exactly are there, Yajnavalkya ? Thirty-three. Very well, said the other, how many gods exactly are there, Yajnavalkya ? six. Very well, said Sakalya, how many gods exactly are there, Yajnavalkya ? Three. Very well, said the other, how many gods exactly are there, Yajnavalkya ? Two. Very well, said Sakalya, how many gods exactly are there, Yajnavalkya ? One and a half. Very well, said Sakalya, how many gods exactly are there, Yajnavalkya ? One. Very well, said Sakalya, which are those three hundred and three and three thousand and three ?
III-ix-2: Yajnavalkya said, these are but the manifestation of them, but there are only thirty-three gods. Which are those thirty-three ? The eight Vasus, the eleven Rudras and the twelve Adityas these are thirty-one and Indra and Prajapati make up the thirty-three.
III-ix-3: Which are the Vasus / Fire, the earth, air, the sky, the sun, heaven, the moon and the stars these are the Vasus, for in these all this is placed; therefore they are called Vasus.
III-ix-4: Which are the Rudras ? The ten organs in the human body, with the mind as the eleventh. When they depart from this mortal body, they make (ones relatives) weep. Because they then make them weep, therefore they are called Rudras.
III-ix-5: Which are the Adityas ? The twelve months (are parts) of a year; these are the Adityas, for they go taking all this with them. Because they go taking all this with them, therefore they are called Adityas.
III-ix-6: Which is Indra, and which is Prajapati ? The cloud itself is Indra, and the sacrifice is Prajapati. Which is the cloud ? Thunder (strength). Which is the sacrifice ? Animals.
III-ix-7: Which are the six (gods) ? Fire, the earth, air, the sky, the sun, and heaven these are the six. Because all those (gods) are (comprised in) these six.
III-ix-8: Which are the three gods ? These three worlds alone, because in these all those gods are comprised. Which are the two gods ? Matter and the vital force. Which are the one and a half ? This (air) that blows.
III-ix-9: Regarding this some say, Since the air blows as one substance, how can it be one and a half ? It is one and a half because through its presence all this attains surpassing glory. Which is the one god ? The vital force (Hiranyagarbha); it is Brahman, which is called Tyat (that).
2. The Truth of the Truth (satyasa satyam)
Brihadaranyaka Upanishad
II-iii-5: Now the subtle it is (the corporeal) air and the ether that is in the body. It is immortal, it is unlimited, and it is undefined. The essence of that which is subtle, immortal, unlimited and undefined is this being that is in the right eye, for this is the essence of the undefined.
II-iii-6: The form of that being is as follows: like a cloth dyed with turmeric, or like grey sheeps wool, or like the (scarlet) insect called Indragopa, or like a tongue of fire, or like a white lotus, or like a flash of lightning. He who knows it as such attains splendour like a flash of lightning. Now therefore the description (of Brahman): Not this, not this. Because there is no other and more appropriate description than this Not this. Now Its name: The Truth of truth. The vital force is truth, and It is the Truth of that.
3. The Summary
Gita Chapter 3
Indriyaani paraanyaahur indriyebhyah param manah;
Manasastu paraa buddhir yo buddheh paratastu sah.
42. They say that the senses are superior (to the body); superior to the senses is the mind; superior to the mind is the intellect; and one who is superior even to the intellect is Hethe Self.
Evam buddheh param buddhwaa samstabhyaatmaanam aatmanaa;
Jahi shatrum mahaabaaho kaamaroopam duraasadam.
43. Thus, knowing Him who is superior to the intellect and restraining the self by the Self, slay thou, O mighty-armed Arjuna, the enemy in the form of desire, hard to conquer!
In my understanding, the Self is the Deity of the self, but the small ego-body self has to traverse the path through: Senses, Mind, Intellect and then the Self.
Om
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Satyamavejayanti
Well-Known Member
Attributes and names of Ishwar/Parbrahman/OM/Parmatma, Devta is the subject matter in the Samhita.
Indra Devta, the subject is Indra and Indra could have several meaning depending on the context of the Mantras.
Yaksh or Yashka ??? mind the spelling in Nirkuta explains the meaning of the words in the Mantra Samhita of the Vedas.
Best explanations would be to study Brahmanas, Aryanakas and Upanishads.
Shuddhasattva
Well-Known Member
Deity comes from the Sanskrit word 'vigrahah'. Vigrahah means 'form'. If you do not know, or even if you know and do not want to acknowledge, the fact still remains that deity means having form.
...
Namaste
This is a spurious etymology.
Please see Wikipedia's etymology page on the word 'deva.'
Devas are not necessarily formed, and their form may not be the material form most conceive of in the context of form. Beyond the jagrat and svapa form is inconceivable, whether in its absence in sushupti or essence in turiya.
Vedic gods are ensouled representatives of cosmic/natural forces.
For the record, I am not debating that the Supreme has a Form. Although I am not an exclusive gaudiya vaishnava, I too happen to believe that the Supreme is both the ground of being itself, and the supreme being who is both formless and formed. Both the form of the material world, for the sake of the dharma, and transcendental form, beyond this universe and its perishability.
But this belief is not the sole preserve of vaishnavism - though I mean no disrespect towards vaishnavism. It is present also in the Paradvaita doctrine of the Trika - amongst others.
Namaste
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Vrindavana Das
Active Member
Two things:
1. Devtas have a form. I am yet to come across a Devta who is formless. Please advise if you know of any.
2. Although I fail to see it, still, my apologies if I seemed to have suggested that Supreme Lord with form is a sole preserve of Vaishnavism.
Supreme Lord has a from and also is formless. However, Form is the cause of formless Brahman.
vadanti tat tattva-vidas
tattvaḿ yaj jñānam advayam
brahmeti paramātmeti
bhagavān iti śabdyate
tattvaḿ yaj jñānam advayam
brahmeti paramātmeti
bhagavān iti śabdyate
"The Absolute Truth is realized in three phases of understanding by the knower of the Absolute Truth, and all of them are identical. Such phases of the Absolute Truth are expressed as Brahman, Paramātmā, and Bhagavān."
Shuddhasattva
Well-Known Member
Namaste
The devas of the vedas. They are shining beings of light. There are plenty of verses in the Vedas, should you take the time to read them, which clearly show that the devas do not have form 'as such.' Rather, they do not have tanuu as such, or rather, their tanuu is pervasive, as they are ambient in the cosmic forces and natural elements they are the consciously ensouled representatives of. Their form is mediated through formlessness.
Your repeated misspelling of deva as devta suggests confusion between devas and devata, which are sometimes synonymous in the plural, and sometimes not.
And of course, there is nirguna brahman, but I do not think you will accept this.
That was not specifically directed at you, though I feel you could learn from it.
This I agree with. However, one should also not confuse the transcendental form of Bhagavan with material conceptualizations of form, bound by an artificial 3(4) dimensional sensory locus.
Namaste
The devas of the vedas. They are shining beings of light. There are plenty of verses in the Vedas, should you take the time to read them, which clearly show that the devas do not have form 'as such.' Rather, they do not have tanuu as such, or rather, their tanuu is pervasive, as they are ambient in the cosmic forces and natural elements they are the consciously ensouled representatives of. Their form is mediated through formlessness.
Your repeated misspelling of deva as devta suggests confusion between devas and devata, which are sometimes synonymous in the plural, and sometimes not.
And of course, there is nirguna brahman, but I do not think you will accept this.
That was not specifically directed at you, though I feel you could learn from it.
Per my view, it is impossible to say that the form is the cause of the formless, or that the formless is the cause of form. I subscribe to ajativada, paradvaita.
This I agree with. However, one should also not confuse the transcendental form of Bhagavan with material conceptualizations of form, bound by an artificial 3(4) dimensional sensory locus.
Namaste
Vrindavana Das
Active Member
Our bodies are composed of 5 material elements - earth, water, fire, air and ether. Does that mean our bodies do not have a form? That is the depth of logic in suggesting that devas are shining beings of light and thus do not have a form. What gives you the idea that shining beings of light cannot have a form?!!
Kindly provide appropriate verse specifically mentioning devas do not have a form.
Please read what I wrote in my post as nirguna Brahman being non-different from Supreme Lord. However, Supreme Lord does not qualify as a deva or a devataa. Please clarify your understanding on the subject.
I think you have a mind-set that Vaishnavas think Supreme Lord is their sole preserve. That is what you need to get rid of. Till such time, it is your problem, not mine my friend.
I think it is foolish to place our personal views over the revealed scriptures. Also, to misinterpret the revealed scriptures, to suit our views does not help.
Who is confusing transcendental form of Lord with material form?!!!
ratikala
Istha gosthi
dear atanu ,
excuse me cheating but wickipedia has listed all deities to whom prayers are dedicated in the rig veda ....
I assume this is what You were originaly asking ?
but it is curious that the debate has become one of the nature of deities , we freely use this term but it is merely the latin for divinity ?
surely we should realy be thinking in terms of gods; devas and asuras .
Daivi ; is divine therefore I assume the latin deity comes from the sanskrit divine ?
(and the Daityas ; the children of Diti , (the giants who wared with the Devas )
excuse me cheating but wickipedia has listed all deities to whom prayers are dedicated in the rig veda ....
I assume this is what You were originaly asking ?
but it is curious that the debate has become one of the nature of deities , we freely use this term but it is merely the latin for divinity ?
surely we should realy be thinking in terms of gods; devas and asuras .
Daivi ; is divine therefore I assume the latin deity comes from the sanskrit divine ?
(and the Daityas ; the children of Diti , (the giants who wared with the Devas )
n.b."The Vishadevas" are all the devas worshiped together ,( or a group of devas)