Debate me on the trinity.

[whirlingmerc]

I disagree with it and believe it is fundamentally wrong.

I agree with it and am convinced it represents the reality of the true Godhead

 

[Workman]

The bible itself indicates no such thing. It was whomever WROTE that, is the one who is "indicating" it. Maybe a seemingly unimportant tidbit, but the implications are far reaching.



A God which time and time again is said to be BEYOND human comprehension. To even SUGGEST that some human being, 'messenger' or otherwise, is even REMOTELY capable of communicating with such a God, is in essence, calling everyone else who declares otherwise, a liar.



Unfortunately we seem to have an abundance of people who feel that they themselves have some sort of 'pipeline' directly TO this ineffable God.....and some, in their attempt to get around that, declare that it is the Holy Spirit that is "talking" to them, as if in doing so, that amounts to a 'get out of jail card', when it comes to veracity.



Ahhhh yes...the OTHER get out of jail card.....the FAITH card. When all else fails and sufficient supporting evidence is not to be found.....out comes the FAITH card as the ultimate Trump Card.



I understand perfectly....this is what you believe and NOTHING I or anyone else can say, will change that. The classic Three (there's that magical 3 again) Monkeys, instantly comes to mind.
Nice chatting with you...

And what’s really funny about directing of ones faith..
Is that one doesn’t even realise that his own faith is robbed from ‘The Living’, Which may I remind one...
Your occupation in life is where you’ve directed your own faith in believing..and for what! For sacrificing your 60+yrs of labor for the living!..so then when you retire(if your lucky) at the age 60-65yrs..what will the living give back for your participation??? And because one has worn, there is no need of their faith no more! So what will you be able to do than? Who than! will you than have faith for..

At least my faith carries me through the living with Gods happiness(not arrogance) and when my time for the living is done..my faith is still there! And so will be my Reward. What reward does the living give you???

 

[Workman]

The bible itself indicates no such thing. It was whomever WROTE that, is the one who is "indicating" it. Maybe a seemingly unimportant tidbit, but the implications are far reaching.



A God which time and time again is said to be BEYOND human comprehension. To even SUGGEST that some human being, 'messenger' or otherwise, is even REMOTELY capable of communicating with such a God, is in essence, calling everyone else who declares otherwise, a liar.



Unfortunately we seem to have an abundance of people who feel that they themselves have some sort of 'pipeline' directly TO this ineffable God.....and some, in their attempt to get around that, declare that it is the Holy Spirit that is "talking" to them, as if in doing so, that amounts to a 'get out of jail card', when it comes to veracity.



Ahhhh yes...the OTHER get out of jail card.....the FAITH card. When all else fails and sufficient supporting evidence is not to be found.....out comes the FAITH card as the ultimate Trump Card.



I understand perfectly....this is what you believe and NOTHING I or anyone else can say, will change that. The classic Three (there's that magical 3 again) Monkeys, instantly comes to mind.
Nice chatting with you...

Please keep your playing cards inside the little box with you..this game is not whom you recognize in, when your done playing yourself your own game! Then Maybe! JUST..maybe!..you might understand a little outside of the monkey cage..

It’ll Be nice to have a chat with you..

 

[ACEofALLaces]

At least my faith carries me through the living with Gods happiness(not arrogance) and when my time for the living is done..my faith is still there! And so will be my Reward. What reward does the living give you???

Essentially what you have is "hope"...nothing substantial, just "hope".
Hope is good, as it helps sooth an unsettled mind as to what awaits a person when the lights finally DO go out.

I have come to the point of my life, where I already feel that I am on 'borrowed time', and every day I wake up is in and of itself a welcome "miracle".

I harbor no fanciful wishful thinking that this life is nothing more than a prelude of something "better", to come, ONLY if I say the right things, do the right things, and believe all the things that I otherwise find difficult to believe.

I am resolved to the fact, and it IS a fact, that when I die, that will be the absolute END of me, for all time. I don't LIKE it, but that's they way it is and I accept it.

I turned in my "get out of jail' FAITH card years ago. Saw no need to be hanging on to it any longer.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Please keep your playing cards inside the little box with you..this game is not whom you recognize in, when your done playing yourself your own game! Then Maybe! JUST..maybe!..you might understand a little outside of the monkey cage...

Hah!......you have NO idea, do you?

[QUOTE="Workman, post: 6080531, member: 65755"It’ll Be nice to have a chat with you..[/QUOTE]

Now it is ME who has 'no idea' of how to do that. I'm still a newbie in these parts.

 

[Workman]

I have come to the point of my life, where I already feel that I am on 'borrowed time', and every day I wake up is in and of itself a welcome "miracle".

I harbor no fanciful wishful thinking that this life is nothing more than a prelude of something "better", to come, ONLY if I say the right things, do the right things, and believe all the things that I otherwise find difficult to believe.

I am resolved to the fact, and it IS a fact, that when I die, that will be the absolute END of me, for all time. I don't LIKE it, but that's they way it is and I accept it.

I turned in my "get out of jail' FAITH card years ago. Saw no need to be hanging on to it any longer.

Well that’s good for you!..all the best for ONLY you..yeah!

Essentially what you have is "hope"...nothing substantial, just "hope".
Hope is good, as it helps sooth an unsettled mind as to what awaits a person when the lights finally DO go out.

Ahhh!..wrong again, this is probably the reason why you lost your faith..
(Hope), I have had when I was an atheist it was my faith that got me this far..but you wouldn’t understand..how can you when everything looks black and white..

 

[Workman]

Essentially what you have is "hope"...nothing substantial, just "hope".
Hope is good, as it helps sooth an unsettled mind as to what awaits a person when the lights finally DO go out.

I have come to the point of my life, where I already feel that I am on 'borrowed time', and every day I wake up is in and of itself a welcome "miracle".

Borrowed time? Miracle?
I think your the one in need of help to sooth an unsettled mind, don’t you think?..your so called “borrowed time” of 60yrs+ ain’t coming back for you... surely you do realise that I hope!...And what’s the miracle about it? To keep on giving back to ‘The living’ their pre-owned property in your “borrowed time”! Huh..should have stayed with your hope after all! Because looks like to me your faith deceived you!..but hey! Look at it the bright side right! Enjoy while you can..I guess

 

[Workman]

I am resolved to the fact, and it IS a fact, that when I die, that will be the absolute END of me, for all time. I don't LIKE it, but that's they way it is and I accept it.

It’s Fact is what you ONLY will ever know, nothing more of is needed as you granted right?..such a shame you gave up! And accepted in choosing to go with its flow..since it IS your absolute fact and final..you will get what you ask for..But like you say:”you won’t like it”.

 

[Workman]

I harbor no fanciful wishful thinking that this life is nothing more than a prelude of something "better", to come, ONLY if I say the right things, do the right things, and believe all the things that I otherwise find difficult to believe.

Understandable! And a lie towards your ending sentence..but I don’t blame you for it!..you don’t believe in God..so that means your a lier..no? But like I said in my earlier post: There is no such thing being as right! For it is ONLY now a MATTER of being wrong(ed).

 

[blü 2]

I disagree with it and believe it is fundamentally wrong.

Certainly there are severe obstacles to believing in the Trinity.

First, Jesus never once claimed to be God, and on at least 17 occasions said he was not God; and Paul also said that Jesus was not God. So if you're a Christian, you have to think Jesus misunderstood his own identity, and promulgated a divine error.

Second, Jesus never heard of the Trinity doctrine, since it wasn't invented till near the end of the 4th century. It took the form it did to solve a political problem for the early church: first it had to turn Jesus (the focus of Christianity, as the word itself tells you) into God; and second, it had to avoid the taunts of Jewish critics that the Christians had many gods hence were no different to the pagans. This explains the doctrine but doesn't redeem it.

It requires you to believe that although there is only one God, God is three distinct 'persons', known as 'Father', 'Son' and 'Holy Ghost' (or, Holy Spirit). The problems arise with the next bit. The Father is 100% of God. If you eg pray to the Father, you're praying to the entirety of God (which is irreconcilable with the notion that God is three distinct persons). Second, the Son is 100% of God. Third, the Ghost is 100% of God.

100%+100%+100% = 300% = 3 gods. This is expressly denied by the Doctrine.

There's another possibility, that each of the 'persons' represents a fraction of God eg that ⅓+⅓+⅓ = 1. This is also expressly denied by the doctrine.

So not only is the doctrine incoherent but it is officially so. The RCC and the Anglicans/Piscos at least, and I dare say the other Trinitarians, call it a 'Mystery in the Strict Sense'. What does that mean?

The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, with which the online Catholic Encyclopia (under 'Trinity' and 'Mystery') agrees, says it means that it "cannot be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, and cannot be cogently demonstrated by reason once it has been revealed".

So one of a number of possible synonyms for 'a mystery in the strict sense' and hence for the 'Trinity Doctrine' is 'a nonsense'.

 

[Workman]

I turned in my "get out of jail' FAITH card years ago. Saw no need to be hanging on to it any longer.

And again, your wrong!!
First of all..Faith comes from understanding..one cannot do unless they have the Faith/understanding of doing...so now that’s clear!
to interpret more clearly of your “get out of jail” card...has meant your faith is relocated into a piece of reality inside of the “Monopoly” world. And If I were you..I might just hang on to that card..just in case!

 

[syo]

Because Jesus said to baptize nations in the name of "the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"...

Yes! You said it all.

 

[Cooky]

100%+100%+100% = 300% = 3 gods. This is expressly denied by the Doctrine.

There's another possibility, that each of the 'persons' represents a fraction of God eg that ⅓+⅓+⅓ = 1. This is also expressly denied by the doctrine.

So not only is the doctrine incoherent but it is officially so. The RCC and the Anglicans/Piscos at least, and I dare say the other Trinitarians, call it a 'Mystery in the Strict Sense'. What does that mean?

The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, with which the online Catholic Encyclopia (under 'Trinity' and 'Mystery') agrees, says it means that it "cannot be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, and cannot be cogently demonstrated by reason once it has been revealed".

So one of a number of possible synonyms for 'a mystery in the strict sense' and hence for the 'Trinity Doctrine' is 'a nonsense'.

You know what else doesn't make sense to liguistical mindsets..?

That the entirety of the whole old and new testaments can be expressed by Him instantaneously through a single utterance.

...That is the power of the mind of God. We cannot comprehend.

 

[Cooky]

Someone please explain Hebrews 1:2.

...Please.

 

[blü 2]

You know what else doesn't make sense to liguistical mindsets..?

That the entirety of the whole old and new testaments can be expressed by Him instantaneously through a single utterance.

...That is the power of the mind of God. We cannot comprehend.

Another thing I don't comprehend is what a real God is ─ one with objective existence, one not imaginary, one out there in the world external to the self / nature / the realm of the physical sciences.

It's not for want of my asking. It's just that it appears no one can tell me.

 

[Cleary]

Another thing I don't comprehend is what a real God is

And you won't (can't) comprehend ... that is, the 'natural man'

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God ..
for they are foolishness to him .. and he cannot understand them .. because they are spiritually appraised .... I Cor 2:14 <><

At that time .. Jesus said .. I praise you .. father .. Lord of heaven and earth ..
that you have hidden these things from the "wise and intelligent" and have revealed them to infants
yes .. father .. for this way was well-pleasing in your sight
all things have been handed over to me by my father .. and no one knows the son except the father ..
nor does anyone know the father except the son .. and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal him ..... Matt 11:25-27 <><

(Jesus) so that, 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise, they might turn and be forgiven .... Mark 4:12 <><

 

[Cleary]

Someone please explain Hebrews 1:2....Please.

Hebrews 1 .. God .. after he spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways

2 .. in these last days has spoken to us in his Son .. whom he appointed heir of all things .. through whom also he made the world < Jesus

3 .. and he is the radiance of his glory and the exact representation of his nature .. and upholds all things by the word of his power ..
when he had made purification of sins .. he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high ..... Hebrews 1:01-3 <><

Do you have a specific question concerning verse 2 ?

 

[Cooky]

Hebrews 1 .. God .. after he spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways

2 .. in these last days has spoken to us in his Son .. whom he appointed heir of all things .. through whom also he made the world < Jesus

3 .. and he is the radiance of his glory and the exact representation of his nature .. and upholds all things by the word of his power ..
when he had made purification of sins .. he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high ..... Hebrews 1:01-3 <><

Do you have a specific question concerning verse 2 ?

Yes, I would like to know how people reconcile this scripture which places Jesus Christ as being present at the creation of the world... Yet at the same time, deny that Christ is a *part* of God.

 

[Cleary]

Indeed Jesus is God ... John 1:1 .... it would be a BIG mistake to deny the deity of Christ or to in some way 'separate' him from God

 

[e.r.m.]

I believe in the Trinity. I think it's right.

Likewise, but I'm not interested in debating it.