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Debate me on the trinity.

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I don't accept the trinity. I don't accept that God is three persons. I accept that God is singular, Jesus Christ is his visible form (Word), and the Holy Ghost is God, working in men. I'm not "Oneness" or "Modest" either. I'm Christian, Non-denominational.
Jesus said he was from / sent by his Father, whom he called "the only true God." John 17:3; at John 4:23-24, he encouraged others to worship his Father....never himself.
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
"...Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds..." I'm not sure what exactly you're questioning, but to me this means that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, created the universe under His Father's direction, that He later came to earth, bearing witness of the Father and ultimately inheriting all His Father has. Do you disagree with me there?

See John 3:34 God has given the son His Spirit "without measure". This means that the son has been given God's Spirit to the extent that it cannot be measured. God has created all things by His Spirit and the son is that Spirit. the son is then attributed all of creation by the unmeasurable Spirit given to him
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
"...Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds..." I'm not sure what exactly you're questioning, but to me this means that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, created the universe under His Father's direction, that He later came to earth, bearing witness of the Father and ultimately inheriting all His Father has. Do you disagree with me there?

Hi Katzpur


I LIKE your reference to the early Judeo-Christian doctrine of the Son as creator under the direction of the Father. I think this early Christian version of the doctrine is more rational and logical than the later Christian theories regarding creation.


1) THE SON (the “only begotten”, the “elect one”, the Fathers “right arm”, etc, etc) AS AN AGENT IN CREATION AND HIS SPECIFIC ROLE IN CREATION.

J. Smith’s creation account says : And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me. And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth. And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten". (Abr chapt 3, vs 29-33)

While I think the phrase “worlds without number” is a Hebraism meaning “many, many," I think in reality, God is able to number them just as he is able to know when each sparrow falls and "hairs on our heads are numbered" to him (matt 10:30). While the early Jewish commentaries on the midrash explain that nine hundred and eighty four (if my memory is correct) earlier worlds were made (and gradually improved upon and refined), and that this earth was a "new world" in a similar pattern to the other worlds, the early Judeo-Christian texts make clear that it is the mediator/messiah/christ that is the actual Agent of creation (under direction of the Father).

This doctrine that the earth was created by the SON, is reflected in Prayer #4 of Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers where they prayed to the Father : you are the Father of wisdom, the Creator, as cause, of the creative workmanship through a Mediator...(aposCon 7.35.1-10);

This doctrine is reflected in other Hellenistic Synagogal prayers. #1 (which was said after the communion) reads : We give thanks to you, O God and Father of Jesus our Savior...on behalf of the knowledge and faith and love and immortality which you gave to us through Jesus your Son. O Master Almighty, the God of the universe, you created the world and what is in it through him,...(Apos Con 7.26. 1-3)

As found in the apostolic constitutions, prayer #3 read : “Blessed are you, O Lord, King of the ages, who through Christ made everything, and through him in the beginning ordered that which was unprepared” - (aposCon 7.34.1-8)

Using the common epithet of Jesus as God’s “right hand” Baruch honors God the Father who with your counsel, you reign over all creation which your right had has created” ("right hand" was another name for the Messiah) The apocalypse of (Baruch 2) 54:13)

In the same manner, Christian Clement speaks of things done by the Father, but THROUGH Jesus as administrator : for example, he refers to God as the creator of the universe...through his beloved servant Jesus Christ...” and that God calls us from darkness to light “through” Jesus, and he refers to “ those who love you through Jesus Christ, your beloved Servant..” (1 Clem 59:2-3)

The cascade of Authority and direction (to create, to administer, etc) from God the Father, through his Son as Administrator is woven into many ancient teachings and texts.

Prayer #9 describes this cascade of creation by God through the son describing God as “Father of your only Son, our God and Savior, the maker of the whole universe through him; 8 the Administrator, the Guardian, ... (From HELLENISTIC SYNAGOGAL PRAYERS - #9 (AposCon 8.5.1-4)

This pattern follows the same parallels as other Christian texts. For example, in the gospel of Bartholomew, the prayer is to “God, exceeding great and all wise, king of the ages, indescribable, ineffable, .who created the breadths of the heavens by your word …” (i.e. the “logos” who was with God in the Beginning – the Messiah). In the next verse, Jesus is described by Mary, as “the perfect Word of the Father, through whom everything was created." The Gospel of Bartholomew chapt two

Thus Katzpur, I very much like the fact that your interpretive model keeps the SON of God in the ancient role of “creator” and “administrator” for the Father. While much of modern orthodoxy has the Father creating the earth, these ancient Christian texts have the SON create and administrate under the Father’s direction and authority.

Clear
ειτζνεακω
 
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Muffled

Jesus in me
Certainly there are severe obstacles to believing in the Trinity.

First, Jesus never once claimed to be God, and on at least 17 occasions said he was not God; and Paul also said that Jesus was not God. So if you're a Christian, you have to think Jesus misunderstood his own identity, and promulgated a divine error.

Second, Jesus never heard of the Trinity doctrine, since it wasn't invented till near the end of the 4th century. It took the form it did to solve a political problem for the early church: first it had to turn Jesus (the focus of Christianity, as the word itself tells you) into God; and second, it had to avoid the taunts of Jewish critics that the Christians had many gods hence were no different to the pagans. This explains the doctrine but doesn't redeem it.

It requires you to believe that although there is only one God, God is three distinct 'persons', known as 'Father', 'Son' and 'Holy Ghost' (or, Holy Spirit). The problems arise with the next bit. The Father is 100% of God. If you eg pray to the Father, you're praying to the entirety of God (which is irreconcilable with the notion that God is three distinct persons). Second, the Son is 100% of God. Third, the Ghost is 100% of God.

100%+100%+100% = 300% = 3 gods. This is expressly denied by the Doctrine.

There's another possibility, that each of the 'persons' represents a fraction of God eg that ⅓+⅓+⅓ = 1. This is also expressly denied by the doctrine.

So not only is the doctrine incoherent but it is officially so. The RCC and the Anglicans/Piscos at least, and I dare say the other Trinitarians, call it a 'Mystery in the Strict Sense'. What does that mean?

The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, with which the online Catholic Encyclopia (under 'Trinity' and 'Mystery') agrees, says it means that it "cannot be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, and cannot be cogently demonstrated by reason once it has been revealed".

So one of a number of possible synonyms for 'a mystery in the strict sense' and hence for the 'Trinity Doctrine' is 'a nonsense'.

I believe that is in error: John 10:30 I and the Father are one.”
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Jesus said he was from / sent by his Father, whom he called "the only true God." John 17:3; at John 4:23-24, he encouraged others to worship his Father....never himself.

I believe since Jesus and the Father are one then by worshiping Jesus we are worshiping the Father.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I believe that is in error: John 10:30 I and the Father are one.”
He did indeed, and better still, he explained it at length in John 17 ─

20 “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Nothing Trinitarian there, as you can see.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I believe since Jesus and the Father are one then by worshiping Jesus we are worshiping the Father.
I know. I guess you think they're literally "one." (How is that? If that is true, then who was Jesus praying to all those times? Himself?) You base this view on John 10:30. But read Jesus' prayer at John 17:20-22. They're one in the sense of unity of purpose. So are His disciples. All Jesus' followers can't literally be one.

Unwittingly, though, IMO you are breaking the very first of the 10 Commandments (Exodus 20 3-5)...God requires exclusive devotion, He's "jealous", "does not tolerate rivals (GOD'S WORD Translation)."

But I also know that your pov has been ingrained in you... I think Jehovah will be merciful toward you and so many others during the future resurrection. Life alienated from Jehovah, i.e., life "under the Sun", this currently misled world, will be a thing of the past then.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
He did indeed, and better still, he explained it at length in John 17 ─

20 “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Nothing Trinitarian there, as you can see.

I believe on the contrary, God being one in me is the Paraclete and third member of the Trinity just as Jesus prayed for it to happen.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I know. I guess you think they're literally "one." (How is that? If that is true, then who was Jesus praying to all those times? Himself?) You base this view on John 10:30. But read Jesus' prayer at John 17:20-22. They're one in the sense of unity of purpose. So are His disciples. All Jesus' followers can't literally be one.

Unwittingly, though, IMO you are breaking the very first of the 10 Commandments (Exodus 20 3-5)...God requires exclusive devotion, He's "jealous", "does not tolerate rivals (GOD'S WORD Translation)."

But I also know that your pov has been ingrained in you... I think Jehovah will be merciful toward you and so many others during the future resurrection. Life alienated from Jehovah, i.e., life "under the Sun", this currently misled world, will be a thing of the past then.

I believe so and have no problem with it.

I believe they are in unity of purpose because they are one but they are not one simply because they in unity of purpose other wise Jesus would have given you that disclaimer , wouldn't He?

I believe since God is one the answer is yes all believes are one in Jesus.

I believe that is false. I worship the one true God and all I have said is evidence of it.

I believe evidently you do not know me well enough. I have nothing ingrained. I simply have allowed Jesus to teach me as I matured in the faith.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I believe on the contrary, God being one in me is the Paraclete and third member of the Trinity just as Jesus prayed for it to happen.
As I keep pointing out, history is perfectly clear ─ the Trinity doctrine didn't exist at the time the NT was written, nor for the two centuries following ─ it's the product of fourth century church politics.

And in the words of the church, it's 'a mystery in the strict sense, in that it cannot be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed' ─ which is to say, it's incoherent.

What you choose to believe as a matter of faith is up to you. But please have some respect for history, which deals with matters of fact.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I believe evidently you do not know me well enough. I have nothing ingrained. I simply have allowed Jesus to teach me as I matured in the faith.

You know how many trinitarians have said that, while at the same time joining their respective countries in conflicts, and killing their trinitarian brothers from other countries?! History is full of it!

Their actions belie their claims.-- Titus 1:16.

If they truly had God's blessing and spirit, they would show love & peace for all their trinitarian brothers. -- Galatians 5:22-23
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
As I keep pointing out, history is perfectly clear ─ the Trinity doctrine didn't exist at the time the NT was written, nor for the two centuries following ─ it's the product of fourth century church politics.

And in the words of the church, it's 'a mystery in the strict sense, in that it cannot be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed' ─ which is to say, it's incoherent.

What you choose to believe as a matter of faith is up to you. But please have some respect for history, which deals with matters of fact.

I believe facts can be managed for one's ow benefit.

I believe it doesn't matter when people recognized the Trinity because it was there from the beginning.

I believe I don't find it to be a mystery so saying it is incoherent based on someones false opinion doesn't cut it.
 
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