Deathbed conversions

[Gentoo]

First, why is it the automatic assumption that if someone converts on their deathbed that it is to Christianity?

I don't view it as truly real. It seems more like a "covering your bases" thing. If one were to profess a certain faith for the majority or all of their life and then, while dying, they were to have a sudden change of mind I would find that hard to swallow. If they believed it to be true in the first place then why wouldn't they have converted a long time ago?

It just seems like a scared "oh crap what if I'm wrong?' manuever. It doesn't mean that they truly and wholeheartedly believe what they suddenly profess to believing.

I completely agree.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Out of curiousity, could you answer me this?

Of the ones you do, how many of them were you requested to do by the person dying without them having anyone else influencing them to do so?

Every situation is different. I normally just ask if they would like some company. I explain who I am and we just talk.

How many were asked of you by relation?

Some, but if someone does not want to talk to me or wants to change the subject, I'm cool with it and am never pushy.

How many do you approach without having been specifically asked to do so?

I just stick my head in the door and ask if they feel like talking

Also, what reasons have you been given as to why the converter wants to convert?

I'm curious about this.

Actually I just have a conversation with the person and see where it takes me. I am totally soft sell. Perhaps someone just wants to be baptised. Perhaps they just want to ask questions. Some people ask me to leave and I go immediately.

 

[Blindinglight]

I feel they are cheating God.
As Einstien said, if we do good for hope of reward and fear of punishment for doing bad, we are a sorry group of people.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

How do you know that was a deathbed conversion? Christ was up on that cross wrongfully. Why are you so quick to assume that the theif's verdict was legitamit?

I don't see the relevance. He was on the verge of death, and he was converted. What does it matter whether he was being executed rightfully or not?

 

[Aqualung]

I don't see the relevance. He was on the verge of death, and he was converted. What does it matter whether he was being executed rightfully or not?

It doesn't, and that's not the question I am raising. Here it is again, in bold and coloured to make it easier to understand.

How do you know the conversion didn't happen before he was on his deathbed. How do you know he wasn't already a follower of Christ? (This is where the relevance of the crime comes in - you CANNOT answer that he wasn't a follower of Christ because he was a theif. EVERYBODY sins, so it is certainly plausible that he made the mistake of stealing and got caught.)

 

[Reverend Rick]

It doesn't, and that's not the question I am raising. Here it is again, in bold and coloured to make it easier to understand.

How do you know the conversion didn't happen before he was on his deathbed. How do you know he wasn't already a follower of Christ? (This is where the relevance of the crime comes in - you CANNOT answer that he wasn't a follower of Christ because he was a theif. EVERYBODY sins, so it is certainly plausible that he made the mistake of stealing and got caught.)

Why make something so simple complex? The man was not saved before. He was saved on his deathbed. Jesus did the saving on their deathbed. If Jesus did this, it must be fine for others to do this as well.

Just because you don't like the way things work does not change anything. All you have to do is accept the gift of salvation some time during your life time and your name is written in the lamb's book of life. If your name is in that book, you go to heaven period. It's not about your deeds or your works or your sins, it's all about your name in that book.

 

[Mike182]

personally i don't think that a deathbed conversion is a sincere one, because i see religion as being a personal way of living life in order to grow and better yourself... a deathbed conversion misses this point.

 

[Aqualung]

Why make something so simple complex? The man was not saved before. He was saved on his deathbed.

It is obviously not so simple if nobody in this entire thread has been able to answer my question. HOW DO YOU KNOW IT WAS A DEATHBED CONVERSION?

If it were really that simple, you would have no trouble at all letting me know how it is that you KNOW it was a deathbed conversion. So far, though, I'm still waiting.

 

[Katzpur]

Why make something so simple complex? The man was not saved before. He was saved on his deathbed. Jesus did the saving on their deathbed. If Jesus did this, it must be fine for others to do this as well.

Just because you don't like the way things work does not change anything. All you have to do is accept the gift of salvation some time during your life time and your name is written in the lamb's book of life. If your name is in that book, you go to heaven period. It's not about your deeds or your works or your sins, it's all about your name in that book.

I don't think Aqualung is making it complex. She is simply raising some very logical questions. The Bible does not tell us anything about this man except that he was a convicted thief. I'm entirely willing to go along with that. The thief did, however, address Jesus as "Lord," and specifically referred to Christ's Kingdom. If he had known nothing of Jesus before the two of them were nailed to their respective crosses, it is unlikely that He would have said what he did. Christ was not preaching to them while they hung on the cross. It is entirely possible, even probable, that the repentent thief had heard the Savior's message prior to the moment when he asked that he be granted salvation. While the condition of the man's heart is what truly mattered, I don't think we can automatically jump to any conclusions about when his conversion really happened.

 

[slabbey06]

It is obviously not so simple if nobody in this entire thread has been able to answer my question. HOW DO YOU KNOW IT WAS A DEATHBED CONVERSION?

If it were really that simple, you would have no trouble at all letting me know how it is that you KNOW it was a deathbed conversion. So far, though, I'm still waiting.

I get your question. We can't know for certain whether or not the thief on the cross put his faith in Christ before he was hanging there or not. But whether it was on his "deathbed" of sometime before, I think the main point is that the thief recognized who Jesus is and put his faith in Him. And because of his faith was that day in paradise with the Lord.

Here's an observation on my part. In Matthew's and Mark's account of Christ's crucifixion, the thieves on either side of him are said to have been insulting Him. Luke's account has one of the thieves responding in faith. I'm wondering if Matthew and Mark's account of the thieves came earlier on in the time Christ was hanging on the cross, and Luke's account came further along, so that maybe as the one thief was hanging there and observed Jesus, he came to realize who He was and responded in faith. Again though, deathbed or no, I think the main point is that the thief put his faith in Jesus, and Jesus reassured him his faith wasn't misplaced.

 

[Katzpur]

Again though, deathbed or no, I think the main point is that the thief put his faith in Jesus, and Jesus reassured him his faith wasn't misplaced.

I think you're right on target. Jesus obviously knew the man's heart and responded accordingly. If the man hadn't been sincere, Jesus would have known that, too.

 

[Smoke]

I think some deathbed conversions must in some cases reflect the person's most deeply-held beliefs. If, at the end of your life, with no one else to answer to, and nothing else on earth to worry about, what you desire is to reconcile yourself to your religion (or somebody else's) it must be because you believe it's a significant and important thing to do.

Then again, if somebody is hovering over your deathbed urging you to "accept Jesus" or something, it might be tempting to acquiesce just to put an end to the noise. But I've known people who resisted that temptation quite forcefully.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I get your question. We can't know for certain whether or not the thief on the cross put his faith in Christ before he was hanging there or not. But whether it was on his "deathbed" of sometime before, I think the main point is that the thief recognized who Jesus is and put his faith in Him. And because of his faith was that day in paradise with the Lord.

Here's an observation on my part. In Matthew's and Mark's account of Christ's crucifixion, the thieves on either side of him are said to have been insulting Him. Luke's account has one of the thieves responding in faith. I'm wondering if Matthew and Mark's account of the thieves came earlier on in the time Christ was hanging on the cross, and Luke's account came further along, so that maybe as the one thief was hanging there and observed Jesus, he came to realize who He was and responded in faith. Again though, deathbed or no, I think the main point is that the thief put his faith in Jesus, and Jesus reassured him his faith wasn't misplaced.

I find it frustrating when Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John all tell the same story with different accounts. Take when Jesus arose on the third day, just how many women where there? Was there one angel or two? Inside or outside the tomb? Did the women go inside the tomb or where they sent away before hand?

And finally, why is it that they could not touch him again? So where was Jesus the last three days before that? He told us where he wasn't.

I reread Luke and can see where some of you are coming from about the thief on the cross. Perhaps he did know Jesus before hand, but that is a stretch.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

How do you know the conversion didn't happen before he was on his deathbed. How do you know he wasn't already a follower of Christ? (This is where the relevance of the crime comes in - you CANNOT answer that he wasn't a follower of Christ because he was a theif. EVERYBODY sins, so it is certainly plausible that he made the mistake of stealing and got caught.)

I think that conversion on his deathbed is the most natural reading of the text. Yes, everybody sins, but not everybody is a robber who has gotten in enough trouble to get himself executed. Also, we see from Mark's account that, "those who were crucified with Him reviled Him." Notice the plural: both theives reviled Him; at some point one of them realized who he was hanging next to, and asked for forgiveness knowing that death would soon be upon him. That's a conversion in my book.

 

[slabbey06]

I find it frustrating when Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John all tell the same story with different accounts. Take when Jesus arose on the third day, just how many women where there? Was there one angel or two? Inside or outside the tomb? Did the women go inside the tomb or where they sent away before hand?

I believe that the Gospels are not telling the same story with different accounts, but are telling the same story emphasizing different parts of it. Kind of like if I and someone else were to both tell you what the weather looks like outside my office window today. We both may describe different aspects of the weather, and we'd both be right. This example probably falls short, but it's the best I can do right after lunch.

And finally, why is it that they could not touch him again? So where was Jesus the last three days before that? He told us where he wasn't.

As far as not touching Him again, the only verse I could find was in John 20 when Jesus told Mary to stop clinging to Him. There are many other instances where people touched Him after His resurrection, so I don't think he was saying she couldn't touch Him again, but was addressing her clinging to Him at that time. I believe Jesus was in heaven the three days before that.

 

[Aqualung]

I get your question.

Finally somebody gets it!

We can't know for certain whether or not the thief on the cross put his faith in Christ before he was hanging there or not. But whether it was on his "deathbed" of sometime before, I think the main point is that the thief recognized who Jesus is and put his faith in Him. And because of his faith was that day in paradise with the Lord.

Yeah, I think that's the point of this story, too. So why is everybody bringing up this most ambiguous situation as die-hard proof that death-bed conversions "work"?

Here's an observation on my part. In Matthew's and Mark's account of Christ's crucifixion, the thieves on either side of him are said to have been insulting Him. Luke's account has one of the thieves responding in faith. I'm wondering if Matthew and Mark's account of the thieves came earlier on in the time Christ was hanging on the cross, and Luke's account came further along, so that maybe as the one thief was hanging there and observed Jesus, he came to realize who He was and responded in faith. Again though, deathbed or no, I think the main point is that the thief put his faith in Jesus, and Jesus reassured him his faith wasn't misplaced.

Most scholars date Matthew later than Luke. Not saying that's true, or anything, but it's something to think about.

 

[Aqualung]

I think that conversion on his deathbed is the most natural reading of the text.

I don't care what you think, I care WHY you think it. Is there some textual evidence, or does it just gel nicely with your preconcieved notions?

Yes, everybody sins, but not everybody is a robber who has gotten in enough trouble to get himself executed. Also, we see from Mark's account

But it's ONLY Luke's account that makes any mention of the theif and being in paradise. In Mark's account, nobody even CONVERTS, let alone converts on their deathbed.

 

[slabbey06]

Finally somebody gets it!


Yeah, I think that's the point of this story, too. So why is everybody bringing up this most ambiguous situation as die-hard proof that death-bed conversions "work"?



Most scholars date Matthew later than Luke. Not saying that's true, or anything, but it's something to think about.

Took awhile huh?

I wouldn't call it die-hard proof, because I wouldn't die over it, but I'd call it a good supporting argument.

I didn't mean that I thought Luke was written later than Matthew. I meant I think Luke's account of the thief's response was further along in Christ's crucifixion than Matthew's or Mark's.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

I don't care what you think, I care WHY you think it. Is there some textual evidence, or does it just gel nicely with your preconcieved notions?


But it's ONLY Luke's account that makes any mention of the theif and being in paradise. In Mark's account, nobody even CONVERTS, let alone converts on their deathbed.

Thus we look at an overall Scripture as a whole, Aqua . Looking at the two accounts together, we see that both were reviling Him at some point, and then one changed and realized the significance of the man hanging next to him, and cries out to Jesus. That's a conversion. As for deathbed, he was on the cross being executed...if he had a pillow and some blankets it couldn't get any clearer.

 

[Aqualung]

I didn't mean that I thought Luke was written later than Matthew. I meant I think Luke's account of the thief's response was further along in Christ's crucifixion than Matthew's or Mark's.

Oh, I see.

Thus we look at an overall Scripture as a whole, Aqua . Looking at the two accounts together, we see that both were reviling Him at some point, and then one changed and realized the significance of the man hanging next to him, and cries out to Jesus. That's a conversion. As for deathbed, he was on the cross being executed...if he had a pillow and some blankets it couldn't get any clearer.

Well, whatever floats your boat, I guess. At least you had the balls to actually explain your position, though.