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Darwin's Illusion

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You do not need to read all of mine. You merely need to know what atheism is.

I will save you from trying to figure out your error. Atheists do not believe in a god or gods. That is not the same as believing that a god does not exist. Very often when someone says "I believe . . . ." that puts an investment into an idea on their part. They quite often cannot think rationally if that belief is threatened. You are often a good example of that. Atheists have a lack of beliefs in gods because no god claim has met anything even close to its burden of proof.

Atheists would change their mind if proper evidence was provided. Many believers unfortunately tell us that they are irrational. In the debate between Bill Nye and Ken Ham most people recognized when Ken Ham lost the debate. The debate was about evolution and creationism and which one was more reasonable. They were each asked what it would take to change their minds. Bill Nye answered "Evidence". If given reasonable evidence he would change his mind. Ken Ham totally lost it when he said "Nothing". Now that may be appreciated by believers that only have faith, which as you know is not a pathway to the truth. But the debate was not about who believes harder. It was which concept was reasonable. And the showed that he could not reason rationally when it came to his faith.

It is far better to say "the evidence does not support that belief, in fact it runs counter to it so I will reject that belief for now" than to say "I do not believe . . . " Show me proper evidence for a god and I will change my mind. I can tell you how if you rely on the Bible that that book refutes your version of God. It does not refute all versions of God. The problem is that one has to be rational when reading it. One has to have consistent rules on what is moral and what is not. Believers tend not to be rational.
OK, thanks for explaining that. Meantime I was reading more about the possibility of a worldwide flood and ti's very interesting. Not that it agrees entirely with the Bible which I know you don't believe, but anyway, here's a bit from an article in the New Scientist: "This was a time when the earth looked very different from what we are used to today. Thick ice sheets extended down from the North Pole as far as Chicago and New York City. All that water had to come from somewhere, so ocean levels were about 400 feet lower than they are today." This is of interest to me and I'll try to tell you later more about this.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You do not need to read all of mine. You merely need to know what atheism is.

I will save you from trying to figure out your error. Atheists do not believe in a god or gods. That is not the same as believing that a god does not exist. Very often when someone says "I believe . . . ." that puts an investment into an idea on their part. They quite often cannot think rationally if that belief is threatened. You are often a good example of that. Atheists have a lack of beliefs in gods because no god claim has met anything even close to its burden of proof.

Atheists would change their mind if proper evidence was provided. Many believers unfortunately tell us that they are irrational. In the debate between Bill Nye and Ken Ham most people recognized when Ken Ham lost the debate. The debate was about evolution and creationism and which one was more reasonable. They were each asked what it would take to change their minds. Bill Nye answered "Evidence". If given reasonable evidence he would change his mind. Ken Ham totally lost it when he said "Nothing". Now that may be appreciated by believers that only have faith, which as you know is not a pathway to the truth. But the debate was not about who believes harder. It was which concept was reasonable. And the showed that he could not reason rationally when it came to his faith.

It is far better to say "the evidence does not support that belief, in fact it runs counter to it so I will reject that belief for now" than to say "I do not believe . . . " Show me proper evidence for a god and I will change my mind. I can tell you how if you rely on the Bible that that book refutes your version of God. It does not refute all versions of God. The problem is that one has to be rational when reading it. One has to have consistent rules on what is moral and what is not. Believers tend not to be rational.
I can't speak for people who believe in god but have a different faith basis than I do, although the apostle Paul did address that when he spoke to those in Athens.
"Paul now stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said:
Men of Athens, I see that in all things you seem to be more given to the fear of the deities than others are. For instance, while passing along and carefully observing your objects of veneration, I found even an altar on which had been inscribed ‘To an Unknown God.’
Interestingly I read a statement regarding a famous rabbi and Einstein when asked about their belief in God. According to what I read, both of them said something about "Spinoza's God," which seemed to mean they were kindoflike atheists. (that includes the rather famous rabbi.) Spinoza’s God | Washington Examiner
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You do not need to read all of mine. You merely need to know what atheism is.

I will save you from trying to figure out your error. Atheists do not believe in a god or gods. That is not the same as believing that a god does not exist. Very often when someone says "I believe . . . ." that puts an investment into an idea on their part. They quite often cannot think rationally if that belief is threatened. You are often a good example of that. Atheists have a lack of beliefs in gods because no god claim has met anything even close to its burden of proof.

Atheists would change their mind if proper evidence was provided. Many believers unfortunately tell us that they are irrational. In the debate between Bill Nye and Ken Ham most people recognized when Ken Ham lost the debate. The debate was about evolution and creationism and which one was more reasonable. They were each asked what it would take to change their minds. Bill Nye answered "Evidence". If given reasonable evidence he would change his mind. Ken HamYtotally lost it when he said "Nothing". Now that may be appreciated by believers that only have faith, which as you know is not a pathway to the truth. But the debate was not about who believes harder. It was which concept was reasonable. And the showed that he could not reason rationally when it came to his faith.

It is far better to say "the evidence does not support that belief, in fact it runs counter to it so I will reject that belief for now" than to say "I do not believe . . . " Show me proper evidence for a god and I will change my mind. I can tell you how if you rely on the Bible that that book refutes your version of God. It does not refute all versions of God. The problem is that one has to be rational when reading it. One has to have consistent rules on what is moral and what is not. Believers tend not to be rational.
Let me see if I really understand what you said. You say that not believing in a god or gods is not the same as believing that a god does not exist. In other words, if I may understand this better, an atheist is not the same as saying that the is no god or God or gods. Right? So for a person to say he doesn't believe in god doesn't mean he believes there is no god. Right? (Because in his mind no proof of God is there...so he doesn't believe in God but if proper evidence of God was established. Correct me if I'm wrong, that to say that one doesn't believe in God doesn't mean he is sure there is no God.) Thanks by the way, to help me to understand one's mindset, I appreciate that. (Not getting into now what various religions consider as moral or immoral, that is perhaps for another conversation. Thanks again.)
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
OK, thanks for explaining that. Meantime I was reading more about the possibility of a worldwide flood and ti's very interesting. Not that it agrees entirely with the Bible which I know you don't believe, but anyway, here's a bit from an article in the New Scientist: "This was a time when the earth looked very different from what we are used to today. Thick ice sheets extended down from the North Pole as far as Chicago and New York City. All that water had to come from somewhere, so ocean levels were about 400 feet lower than they are today." This is of interest to me and I'll try to tell you later more about this.

Yes, that is well known. During the last glaciation sea level dropped. A lot. but when the ice sheets melted they did not melt over night. They took over a thousand years to to that. The slow rise from the ice sheets melting is a source for some flood myths. For example near where I live there were about 40 major flood caused by a glacial lake repeatedly breaking through temporary walls. Please note, not one flood Forty of them.

Channeled Scablands - Wikipedia

Also the Black Sea flood that would not have killed anyone but did eat some cities was also likely due to rising sea levels.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Let me see if I really understand what you said. You say that not believing in a god or gods is not the same as believing that a god does not exist. In other words, if I may understand this better, an atheist is not the same as saying that the is no god or God or gods. Right? So for a person to say he doesn't believe in god doesn't mean he believes there is no god. Right? (Because in his mind no proof of God is there...so he doesn't believe in God but if proper evidence of God was established. Correct me if I'm wrong, that to say that one doesn't believe in God doesn't mean he is sure there is no God.) Thanks by the way, to help me to understand one's mindset, I appreciate that. (Not getting into now what various religions consider as moral or immoral, that is perhaps for another conversation. Thanks again.)
Correct, it is keeping an open mind on the matter.

For example I do not believe in Bigfoot, but if someone found him I would not suddenly deny it. There may be a god, but it pretty clearly is not the God of the Bible. If you really understood the Adam and Eve myth you would know that the bad guy was God in Genesis. He not only set up Adam and Eve to fail, he then decided to punish all of their children even though they were not at fault in any way at all. In the Noah's Ark myth because God screwed the pooch he is sorry so he wished that he did not make man and then performs an act of genocide.

Supposedly this God is omniscient and omnipotent and omnibenevolent and he keeps proving that he is not any of those.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I can't speak for people who believe in god but have a different faith basis than I do, although the apostle Paul did address that when he spoke to those in Athens.
"Paul now stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said:
Men of Athens, I see that in all things you seem to be more given to the fear of the deities than others are. For instance, while passing along and carefully observing your objects of veneration, I found even an altar on which had been inscribed ‘To an Unknown God.’
Interestingly I read a statement regarding a famous rabbi and Einstein when asked about their belief in God. According to what I read, both of them said something about "Spinoza's God," which seemed to mean they were kindoflike atheists. (that includes the rather famous rabbi.) Spinoza’s God | Washington Examiner

"Spinoza's God" is essentially the universe. It does not imply that that god is moral or is the source of morals.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
The human theists known world flood. As science.

Planet earth. Volcanic eruption not a sun. Into space emptiness. Gases formed stretched voided cooled as did waters to a mass.

Ends as a cooled sealed mass crystalline faced. Clear gases.

Earth.

Meanwhile sun cools blasts not as a volcano then attacks all things with alighted mass.

Earth is flooded sealed once again.

Laws. Rock. Volcano. Earthquakes. Asteroids iced mass...earths heavens water. The flood.

Flood. Earth covered rock sealed in water with waters mass. Exploded again opens beneath the water.

Water mass evaporated. Opened earth forms its seas. Fresh water proof earth was flooded.

Sciences status just science only thought terms about mass change.

Science said it was never about biology.

As on bared naked earth not a flood...the nature gardens body is underground rooted. As it's biology next to solids mass as not biology.

Is science exact told.... biology did not begin in the flood.

Science.

Cannot talk about it unless it's human observed. Or argued.

Science argues against theories.

Men then said in the sea land biology began. As water animals came out of water onto the land.

As nature garden exists within waters heavens already it's a taught misnomer.

Animals in the sea life still today come out of the sea water. Yet go back into it.

Scientists hence once theoried salted heavy sea water began biology as today were lying. Why science says not in any term the flood.

As it's the theist human who thought all wrong's that hurt life.

A human says I'm not a monkey now. As it's theists now who say I theory a human is once Monkey ...yet we are all human. Have been human as human law is the human.

Legal for humans said no monkey is a humans god.

In legal terms humans were told there is no theory about humans creation. Is the natural humans argument as reality I'm correct. Human first.

As everyone is a human now mutual equal.

Looking back meant you wanted life now destroyed by your thesis plus machine you theoried for. Why you theoried first...as just a human.

Claiming a machine as a UFO created all life. Was the humans legal rights no it's just it's own body mass.

Same today as it was before.

Science said for a reaction its destruction not a creation. By humans who built the human machine.

We had to say human machine in science terms is first to bring to your attention we aren't stars burning sun mass.

Not hearing subliminal interference man thought it said a human is a machine.

Proving and already tested by modern science that subliminal transmitters can make any Human believe what they hadn't believed before.

As natural humans all are the same first...and so are owned bio behaviours not a machine.

Was for their owned mind example of what's wrong with a scientists mind today.

Seeing men claim experiments teaches a scientist.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
"Spinoza's God" is essentially the universe. It does not imply that that god is moral or is the source of morals.
:) There you go! :) I haven't read too much about Spinoza or his philosophy, but when I have more time maybe I'll look into it. Time is limited in this lifetime anyway.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
The Hebrews got their flood myth from the Neo-Babylonians (6th century BCE, during their exile in Babylon) or even earlier by the Neo-Assyrians (7th century BCE).

The Babylonian myths predated the Neo-Babylonian (or the Chaldean) dynasty, existing in the previous Babylonian dynasties, in the previous millennium(eg Amorites dynasty (1st dynasty of Babylon) with the Epic of Atrahasis and Epic of Gilgamesh), and the Kassite dynasty (2nd dynasty of Babylon), with Epic of Gilgamesh.

The Assyrians and Babylonians weren't just invaders, they also do trade, and at times, cultural exchange.

If they weren't executed after being conquered, royal and noble people would be hostages, were often educated in the culture and etiquette of their hosts, as the hosts would also learned from the hostages.

And if the priests of Judah were also hostages at Babylon, then they would have learned of their host's religion.

There are no evidence that Judah and Israel have any scriptural literature PRIOR TO 7th century BCE: Jewish & Christian traditions that books attributed to Moses as author, such as Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus, & Genesis, don’t exist in the late Bronze Age (c 1590 - c 1050 BCE).

There are no original Hebrew sources (eg Genesis, Exodus, etc) in the second half of 15th century BCE, the supposed time of plagues of Egypt and mass exodus out of Rameses (Egyptian Pi-Ramesses, “House of Ramesses”) and the start of Joshua’s & Israelite conquest in 1407 BCE. There are no mention of these events or people (eg Moses, Joshua, etc) in any Egyptian or Canaanite sources in this century.

In fact Pi-Ramesses (biblical Rameses) don’t exist until the 13th century, in which Seti I named the city which he started building after his father, Ramesses I, who was the founder of the 19th dynasty (1292 - 1189 BCE).

It is highly doubtful that Israelites have their own Flood story prior to 6th century Exile, because as I said earlier, Genesis didn't exist in the Late Bronze Age (c 1590 - c 1050 BCE).

As I said earlier, there are earlier texts and myths, older Babylonian sources to the myths of Atrahasis (eg Epic of Atrahasis, c 17th century BCE) and of Utnapishtim (eg Epic of Gilgamesh, c 18th century BCE).

The myths of Utnapishtim & Atrahasis were the same character, but just under different names, but they were based on older myths, in which the Flood hero was named in Sumerian as Ziusudra.

Ziusudra appeared in number of Sumerian clay tablets in the second half of the 3rd millennium BCE, hence Early Bronze Age (EBA is dated from c 3100 - c 1950 BCE):
  • Fragments of clay tablets found in Eridu, in which it narrated the myth of creation and flood, hence translators and scholars often referred the tablets as Eridu Genesis. But only portions survived, eg
    • humans were created by An, Enlil, Enki & Ninhursag;
    • people drowned in flood water;
    • and post-Flood when the smell of sacrifices drew the gods to Ziusudra
  • Sumerian poem of the Death of Bilgames, where Ziusudra & the Flood are alluded to, but not narrated.
  • The Instructions of Shuruppak (tablet dated to around 2600 BCE), a wisdom monologue from Shuruppak to his son Ziusudra.
  • There are several Sumerian king lists, but only one, that mentioned Ziusudra and the flood, in the recension version, WB-62
The points of this history lessons in regarding to Ziusudra, Atrahasis & Utnapishtim, is the connection between Ziusudra and the Sumerian city Shuruppak, because there are real evidence that devastating flood hit Shuruppak around 2900 BCE.

This is where the legend of Sumerian and Babylonian myths developed from, based on a real river flood. As Genesis flood was based on Babylonian Utnapishtim, the Babylonians based their story on Sumerian Ziusudra...but myth of Ziusudra is based on real river flood at Shuruppak, not on the Black Sea Deluge hypothesis.

People who think the Genesis flood is based on the black sea deluge hypothesis is relying on flimsy false equivalence & confirmation bias.


"The Hebrews got their flood myth from the Neo-Babylonians (6th century BCE, during their exile in Babylon) or even earlier by the Neo-Assyrians (7th century BCE)"


Who did the Neo-Babylonians get their flood story from?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
"Spinoza's God" is essentially the universe. It does not imply that that god is moral or is the source of morals.
Yeah well maybe I'll read more about Spinoza's beliefs since his "God" is the universe. Would you say that's your god? I guess that's how Einstein looked at it also since he was so curious. And I don't blame Einstein in that respect because the "universe" (including light rays) is so remarkable, beyond cohesive description. Scientists are still in wonderment about the universe. How it is, how it started.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
@Subduction Zone you might be interested in this: "The huge size of the reservoir throws new light on the origin of Earth’s water. Some geologists think water arrived in comets as they struck the planet, but the new discovery supports an alternative idea that the oceans gradually oozed out of the interior of the early Earth." What is so interesting about this is that Genesis describes this as waters coming up from inside the earth as well. Describing this, Genesis 7:11 says, “All the springs of the vast watery deep were broken open and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.” So Moses had some inside information about this part of the overwhelming floodwaters. Massive 'ocean' discovered towards Earth's core | New Scientist
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Yeah well maybe I'll read more about Spinoza's beliefs since his "God" is the universe. Would you say that's your god? I guess that's how Einstein looked at it also since he was so curious. And I don't blame Einstein in that respect because the "universe" (including light rays) is so remarkable, beyond cohesive description. Scientists are still in wonderment about the universe. How it is, how it started.
It seems almost insulting to call the universe a god. It does not have all of the negative attributes of human gods. But if you want to think that way it is fine with me.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
@Subduction Zone you might be interested in this: "The huge size of the reservoir throws new light on the origin of Earth’s water. Some geologists think water arrived in comets as they struck the planet, but the new discovery supports an alternative idea that the oceans gradually oozed out of the interior of the early Earth." What is so interesting about this is that Genesis describes this as waters coming up from inside the earth as well. Describing this, Genesis 7:11 says, “All the springs of the vast watery deep were broken open and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.” So Moses had some inside information about this part of the overwhelming floodwaters. Massive 'ocean' discovered towards Earth's core | New Scientist
Your timing would be off by about 4 billion years.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes, I know there are tsunamis and other cataclysmic events. This does not mean that the account of Noah was not inspired. One might speculate on the physical possibility, but I have not gone into the details of that although others have. It sounds possible to me. Including the waste which some people bring up. I can't say, but it also does say that Noah kept a log book which is not available for us to read now.
Especially as a person who embraces the theory of evolution as to how we got here, and one who says there is no God, you would take no note of the significance of the record. I believe it is true. As far as things hard to believe, it was apparently hard for physicists to believe what Einstein was saying about the theory of relativity. What does this mean? It means that I believe that the telling of the account about Noah and the worldwide flood is of divine making. Since you don't believe in God, you do not.
The salient point is that there is no physical evidence for such a flood, and a great deal of multidisciplinary evidence not only that it didn't occur, but couldn't have occurred.
Sometimes I am a slow learner. So an atheist does not believe in a God or gods, even if they exist, do I have that right now?
In essence, an atheist's opinion of God is the same as an a-unicornist's opinion on unicorns: lack of belief, pending evidence.
This has been explained here in RF a thousand times. I don't understand how you haven't picked up on this.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The salient point is that there is no physical evidence for such a flood, and a great deal of multidisciplinary evidence not only that it didn't occur, but couldn't have occurred.
In essence, an atheist's opinion of God is the same as an a-unicornist's opinion on unicorns: lack of belief, pending evidence.
This has been explained here in RF a thousand times. I don't understand how you haven't picked up on this.
Well, @Subduction Zone has been kind enough to explain more about atheism. I'm still not sure
understand but maybe in time I will.
So an atheist doesn't believe in God because there is no evidence, but such a person won't definitely say there is no God, is that correct?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The salient point is that there is no physical evidence for such a flood, and a great deal of multidisciplinary evidence not only that it didn't occur, but couldn't have occurred.
In essence, an atheist's opinion of God is the same as an a-unicornist's opinion on unicorns: lack of belief, pending evidence.
This has been explained here in RF a thousand times. I don't understand how you haven't picked up on this.
I really don't know anyone who believes in unicorns, do you?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
OK, thanks for explaining that. Meantime I was reading more about the possibility of a worldwide flood and ti's very interesting. Not that it agrees entirely with the Bible which I know you don't believe, but anyway, here's a bit from an article in the New Scientist: "This was a time when the earth looked very different from what we are used to today. Thick ice sheets extended down from the North Pole as far as Chicago and New York City. All that water had to come from somewhere, so ocean levels were about 400 feet lower than they are today." This is of interest to me and I'll try to tell you later more about this.
Agreed, ice ages are interesting, but I don't understand how they'd have anything to do with a worldwide flood.
@Subduction Zone you might be interested in this: "The huge size of the reservoir throws new light on the origin of Earth’s water. Some geologists think water arrived in comets as they struck the planet, but the new discovery supports an alternative idea that the oceans gradually oozed out of the interior of the early Earth." What is so interesting about this is that Genesis describes this as waters coming up from inside the earth as well. Describing this, Genesis 7:11 says, “All the springs of the vast watery deep were broken open and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.” So Moses had some inside information about this part of the overwhelming floodwaters. Massive 'ocean' discovered towards Earth's core | New Scientist
The oceans have been here for billions of years; long before any life existed on land.
The Flood presupposes an impossibly massive and sudden inundation, followed by an equally implausible disapearance of water.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm not talking about timing. I'm talking about the fact that the Bible says the water came from the watery deep, and science is now attesting to the idea that there was and is lots of water deep in the earth. Massive 'ocean' discovered towards Earth's core | New Scientist
The Bible says the water came suddenly, and mentions no other atmospheric disruptions. The cited article says "...they [the oceans] have stayed the same size for millions of years."

The "water" deep in the Earth is mineral bound. It's not going to suddenly unbind, a few thousand years ago, rush to the surface for a couple of months, then rush bask to re-ensconce itself into the rock.
I really don't know anyone who believes in unicorns, do you?
I don't -- nor do I understand what this would have to do with my analogy.

Do you understand what an analogy is, or how one works?
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Agreed, ice ages are interesting, but I don't understand how they'd have anything to do with a worldwide flood.
The oceans have been here for billions of years; long before any life existed on land.
The Flood presupposes an impossibly massive and sudden inundation, followed by an equally implausible disapearance of water.
The biblical account speaks of waters coming from above and below.. Right now that's all I'm saying because many people have been taught that it rained for 40 days & 40 nights, which it did, but the Bible says water also came from below. . "All the springs of the vast watery deep were broken open and the floodgates of the heavens were opened." (Genesis 7:11) We can go into dates perhas another time.
 
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