Dark Pagansim

[Lehnah]

I recently found this interview with author John Coughlin talking about his book on dark paganism. I've read a little about dark paganism on various web sites and I must say it is something I've responded to.

I myself have grown tired of the light and "fluffy" stuff I see on pagan-centric sites and magazines. It seems all anyone wants to talk about is singing happy songs and making their wands look nice. It seems strange that for a religion that is supposed to embrace all aspects of nature and is all about balance seems so ready to ignore the dark. And I don't mean dark in the "oooh, evil and bad" sense, but rather dark as in night, in the hidden things, in mysteries. I find the night beautiful and I feel drawn to its seductive quality. Why are there no pagan writings on this?

I thought I'd open the floor to people to see what pagans here think of dark paganism and what, if anything, it means to them. For my own part I intend to order Coughlin's book and have a read of it so once I do I'll let you guys know what I think.

Cheers.

 

[Vorinn]

I think maybe you've been reading the wrong sites and magazines? That stuff is certainly out there, although I can't name any specific resources. I get the impression that a lot of us are drawn to the night and to mystery. There is a lot of "fluffy" out there, but that's definitely not all there is.

I wouldn't personally use the term "dark paganism" to describe my own path, but the idea of the mysteries and the beauty of the night really is part of it. I guess I don't think that defining myself in that way is particularly helpful, though, and I'm not into the whole "ooh, look how dark and mysterious and gothy I am" thing that can sometimes be the flip side of "singing happy songs and making their wands look nice."

I'll be interested to hear what you think of the book.

 

[Erebus]

I thought I'd open the floor to people to see what pagans here think of dark paganism and what, if anything, it means to them. For my own part I intend to order Coughlin's book and have a read of it so once I do I'll let you guys know what I think.

Cheers.

Definitely recommend Out of the Shadows, I thoroughly enjoyed it myself. I also quite like the works of Konstantinos, though he may be a little too theatrical for some.

As a term "Dark Paganism" can be useful to avoid the typical association between the "Pagan" and "Hippy". However, it does leave a great deal of room for personal interpretation and external prejudice and so I rarely use it in day to day discussion (then again I rarely discuss my own beliefs in person). For me, it's a fairly accurate summary of what I believe/practice. I'm Pagan by technicality and Dark by inclination.
From a young age I've been attracted to death, magic, monsters, demons, suffering and classic gothic imagery. To me, "Darkness" in the metaphorical sense covers imagination, mystery, negativity and subtlety. I think of Dark Paganism as being the natural path for me spiritually as it suits my personality.

I may come back to this thread and attempt to explain this in a more articulate manner, though it could of course be argued that darkness by its very nature defies articulation.

 

[Lehnah]

I think maybe you've been reading the wrong sites and magazines?

Possibly. When searching it on-line I've been able to find very little. As for magazines there are really only two pagan magazines here in Australia and both are VERY fluffly and pretty much 90% aimed towards women, which I also have a big problem with (again, what happened to balance?). If you do find any good resources, please let me know.

"ooh, look how dark and mysterious and gothy I am"

Definitely recommend Out of the Shadows, I thoroughly enjoyed it myself.

Great to hear!

I think of Dark Paganism as being the natural path for me spiritually as it suits my personality.

That's the way I feel, too. While I'm not drawn to all of the things you list I do certainly lean towards a "darker' persuasion.

 

[Mata]

I myself have grown tired of the light and "fluffy" stuff I see on pagan-centric sites and magazines. It seems all anyone wants to talk about is singing happy songs and making their wands look nice. It seems strange that for a religion that is supposed to embrace all aspects of nature and is all about balance seems so ready to ignore the dark. And I don't mean dark in the "oooh, evil and bad" sense, but rather dark as in night, in the hidden things, in mysteries. I find the night beautiful and I feel drawn to its seductive quality. Why are there no pagan writings on this?

I thought I'd open the floor to people to see what pagans here think of dark paganism and what, if anything, it means to them. For my own part I intend to order Coughlin's book and have a read of it so once I do I'll let you guys know what I think.

Cheers.

I have read some of Coughlin's book and I thought it seemed well written, but it wasn't my thing. It seemed like he was trying to hard to make out some kind of *in eerie voice-over* "spooky religiionnnnnnn!". Not that's it's a bad thing. Just seems rather unnecessary, because it's almost entirely a direct reaction against fluffly bunny New Age paganism.

For me, the biggest antidote against fluffiness is reconstructionist methodology. It tends to make most New Agers run in the opposite direction after a little reading, a lot of the time lol.

Anyhow, I'd suggest getting the book, if you're looking for a general pan-neo-pagan IAMNOTFLUFFY POV.

 

[Lehnah]

For me, the biggest antidote against fluffiness is reconstructionist methodology. It tends to make most New Agers run in the opposite direction after a little reading, a lot of the time lol.

Could you expand on that a little?

 

[Mata]

Could you expand on that a little?

Sure. I'll try to clarify.

I am unsure whether you're familiar with the reconstructionist methodology, so I'll give a quick explanation: pagan reconstructionism is the study of pre-Christian religion through literature, archeology, and to some degree folklore and anthropology. Through the study many proponents are trying to rebuild the old pagan faiths, as close as they were in ancient times, but modified to some degree for the modern world.

Now, the reason I say some recon methodology makes fluffies run because many ancient religions aren't very.... hmm, "nourishing"? For certain New Age ideas. Which happen to be where a lot of the neo-pagan fluffiness comes from.

The whole idea of light/dark separation of believers is mostly unnecessary for many recon religions, because the worldview is rarely all sweetness and light. For example, in Sumerian paganism, humans are slaves to the gods, and are made only to serve the gods. That doesn't really seem like something a generic neo-pagan would say, does it? lol.

Reconstructism is certainly not for everyone. But many neo-pagans find it's exactly what they want to some degree. Myself included. Which is why I consider myself a "soft" recon.

Geez, that's way more rambling than I intended it to be Let me know if you need further explanation. Because I know I would

 

[Nisou Kitsune]

I just want to say that "Dark Paganism" is misleading. Paganism is neither light nor dark, but just is. Paganism the the umbrella word for all non monotheist religions that are not part of the Big Religions. Now, you can practice only the dark half of the Circle, and that is fine if that is what you desire (even tho I do not agree that noobs should deal with this force at all)

 

[Vorinn]

I just want to say that "Dark Paganism" is misleading. Paganism is neither light nor dark, but just is. Paganism the the umbrella word for all non monotheist religions that are not part of the Big Religions.

I don't quite understand what you mean by this. I'm not a huge fan of the word "dark" as it's used here, but I don't think that's what you're getting at. I'd agree that Paganism as a whole is neither light or dark, but surely there are "light" and "dark" varieties of it. A devotee of Apollo, or Brigid, is going to practice very differently from someone devoted to Hekate, or the Morrigan (to pull some gods and goddesses off the top of my head and categorize them more crudely than they really deserve). You could do a ritual to get in touch with the powers of the night, and at some other point you could dance around a Maypole. Different people are going to work with different balances of these energies.

(The words don't typically get used this way, but you could argue that there are "light" and "dark" aspects or varieties of other religions too. Christian practice that focuses on the threat of hellfire could be described as "darker" than practice that focuses on charity, for example.)

(even tho I do not agree that noobs should deal with this force at all)

I strongly disagree with this, at least as long as we're defining "dark" as I understood it from the OP. There definitely are things that could be described as "dark" that newbies probably shouldn't be doing - trying to raise the spirits of the dead, and hexing, come to mind. But in general? As you said, the dark is half of the circle. I would really not want to see a Samhain ritual that didn't deal with "dark" forces at all.

Also, some people, either by their temperament or because of personal history, need to or want to deal with the "dark" before they can get in touch with the "lighter" side of Paganism. That in itself isn't dangerous or bad, if they are smart about it.

I suspect that this is in part a semantic debate depending on different understandings of the word "dark" in this context. As I said earlier, I'm really not convinced that it's a helpful word at all (thus the copious use of scare quotes). I wish I could come up with a better one to express my own meanings.

 

[Lehnah]

@ Mata: Thanks for the explanation. I did Google reconstructionist methodology but didn't really get anywhere so any info would be great. Or, if it's easier for you, just point me towards a web site.

I just want to say that "Dark Paganism" is misleading. Paganism is neither light nor dark, but just is. Paganism the the umbrella word for all non monotheist religions that are not part of the Big Religions. Now, you can practice only the dark half of the Circle, and that is fine if that is what you desire (even tho I do not agree that noobs should deal with this force at all)

I think you're misunderstanding how 'dark' is used in this context. It doesn't mean 'evil' or 'death' specifically but rather it's to point out that people who follow that path acknowledge that everything has a light AND dark side rather than simply the light/fluffy stuff that some (in my opinion too many) pagans concentrate on. It's also embrassing that the darkness can have as much beauty and purpose as the light, in a general sense.

 

[Mata]

@ Mata: Thanks for the explanation. I did Google reconstructionist methodology but didn't really get anywhere so any info would be great. Or, if it's easier for you, just point me towards a web site.

Try googling "pagan reconstructist/reconstructism" that should lead you to more information rather than my vagueness ( I can't post links yet). Just remember, it's not for everyone. But it can help you learn more about various beliefs, from a non-new age perspective. Thus, there's little worry of things being overtly "fluffy".

EDIT: I can now post links

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytheistic_reconstructionism

http://www.ecauldron.net/reconindex.php

There's a lot more sites that talk about it. But most of them are more specific in their focus (Celtic, Greek, Egyptian, etc). I hope that helps some.

 

[Nisou Kitsune]

The point that I was trying to make was that Paganism is just an umbrella word. Why not say "Left handed path" or "dark witchcraft"? Saying "dark Paganism" is misleading because no matter what you practice, be it necromancy, death magick, Beltane or Samhain energy, working with Hecate or The Morrigan or just doing regular rituals and spells, its all caught under Witchcraft, and Witchcraft is sect of Paganism. It is akin to wanting to only talk to Baptists yet saying "salvation through faith alone, Scripture alone Christianity".

Does this make sense?

 

[Vorinn]

The point that I was trying to make was that Paganism is just an umbrella word. Why not say "Left handed path" or "dark witchcraft"? Saying "dark Paganism" is misleading because no matter what you practice, be it necromancy, death magick, Beltane or Samhain energy, working with Hecate or The Morrigan or just doing regular rituals and spells, its all caught under Witchcraft, and Witchcraft is sect of Paganism. It is akin to wanting to only talk to Baptists yet saying "salvation through faith alone, Scripture alone Christianity".

Does this make sense?

It sounds like this is a totally separate question from anything related to "darkness." Are you saying that those of us who define ourselves primarily as Pagan should drop that term and call ourselves witches instead? I disagree, but this probably deserves its own thread.

 

[Lehnah]

I can see why reconstructionism would put people off. One of the biggest reasons for my going to paganism/ wiccas as the freedom it gave. Reconstructionism seems to enforce certain deities and practices on people, which is not something I at all agree with.

 

[Ravenheart]

I recently started my own research on Dark Paganism. But I found one writer that rung a bell to my mind. That's J.Coughlin. But stretching my research even deeper, I found out that he is a mere goth trying to impress people. Would you trust him and his writings? How much do you think he has contributed in this path called Dark Paganism?
Thanks

 

[Erebus]

I recently started my own research on Dark Paganism. But I found one writer that rung a bell to my mind. That's J.Coughlin. But stretching my research even deeper, I found out that he is a mere goth trying to impress people. Would you trust him and his writings? How much do you think he has contributed in this path called Dark Paganism?
Thanks

This is a problem that can crop up quite a lot in the occult community. I know nothing about Coughlin himself (though I enjoyed his book) but wouldn't be surprised if what you said was true. Similarly Anton LaVey made up stories about himself in order to inspire sensationalism, yet I enjoyed The Satanic Bible too. Crowley had more than the occasionally run in with hard drugs, but I quite like his concept of Thelema if not his writing on the whole.

Basically you have to find for yourself what you do and don't agree with in any occult book, the author's personal life is secondary to this IMO. No book will be 100% accurate and inspiring, but the majority will have little gems of knowledge scattered around. Coughlin's book is in no way a bible of Dark Paganism, rather it's his own opinions and experiences some of which I agree with, some of which I don't. As far as contributing to Dark Paganism goes, I think what he's done is essentially created a beginners guide and covered a few of the practices that might be encountered.

As a label, Dark Paganism covers a lot of territory and what does or doesn't fall into that category is largely subjective. I know that Coughlin himself borders on Wiccan beliefs and practices and therefore represents a portion of Dark Paganism, but not the whole. In a similar way Gardner represents a portion of Paganism, but not the whole.

Rambled a bit there, but hope it makes sense

 

[Sylvan]

Look into Sabbatian Witchcraft a la Andrew Chumbley.

Too bad the books are impossibly expensive to physically acquire.

 

[Ravenheart]

Ah thanks you very much for your thoughts friend! Yes you're right about the writers and what they do in their personal life... never thought of it this way.

As a label, Dark Paganism covers a lot of territory and what does or doesn't fall into that category is largely subjective. I know that Coughlin himself borders on Wiccan beliefs and practices and therefore represents a portion of Dark Paganism, but not the whole. In a similar way Gardner represents a portion of Paganism, but not the whole.

Rambled a bit there, but hope it makes sense

Mmm... can you suggest me some religions or movements that fall under the umbrella of "Dark Paganism"? Cause I really like this concept you know! I'd really love to join such a movement BUT I don't like the fact that they are LHP (I consider these too evil without reason). Please prove me wrong!

 

[Erebus]

Ah thanks you very much for your thoughts friend! Yes you're right about the writers and what they do in their personal life... never thought of it this way.



Mmm... can you suggest me some religions or movements that fall under the umbrella of "Dark Paganism"? Cause I really like this concept you know! I'd really love to join such a movement BUT I don't like the fact that they are LHP (I consider these too evil without reason). Please prove me wrong!

No problems

As a general rule anybody who follows "Dark" gods could rightly consider themselves a dark pagan. This means anybody from eclectics to reconstructionists could potentially fall under this category. Wiccans who focus on the Crone, Druids who focus on the Morrigan, Kemeticists who focus on Anubis, Osiris or Set. All of those could be considered dark pagan.

As for specific religions, it's a little more difficult. The religion I most closely identify with (Demonolatry) could be considered a form of Dark Paganism. However, Demonolaters come in a variety of favours. Some are light, others dark. Some are theistic Satanists, others are closer to Kabbalists. It really depends.

My advice would be to look for dark deities rather than religions. Religions are structured and ordered as a general rule while the dark path is anything but There are various deities that can help you out, but if you want to explore the dark you have to find your own way.

Are there any specific pantheons you're interested in? I can rattle off a few dark gods pretty quickly, but they need to be your "flavour" so to speak

 

[Ravenheart]

I understand. Now to answer your question I should mention that it is hard for meto believe in a certain anthropomorphic pantheon so I've structured my own belief system as far as deities are concerned. I worship mother earth and father sun, but as Coughlin mentions in his book, there is not only the light side in nature. Balance is a must so my mother has a dark aspect too. Therefor my theories can be considered as dark paganism. I see that on a funny way you led me to realize that my form of worship falls under this category too!
Thanks again and I'm looking forward in seeing your opinion!