Daniel 12:2

[Bree]

Why do JWs forget that humans are more than just dirt but then say that the body is not the soul in their religion even though the OT says that a dead body is a dead soul?

Eccles 12:6 Remember him—before the silver cord is severed,
and the golden bowl is broken;
before the pitcher is shattered at the spring,
and the wheel broken at the well,
7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

I can tell you why... its because we base our understanding on the 'original' meaning of the words for soul and spirit. There is a difference between the hebrew words 'soul' and 'spirit'

Soul is from the hebrew word ne'phesh and in greek it is psy-khe. . Soul is used in the Bible to refer to (1) people, (2) animals, or (3) the life that a person or an animal has. “soul” in the Bible, both neʹphesh and psy·kheʹ, is always used in connection with earthly creatures and refers to material, tangible, visible, and mortal life.

Spirit is from the Hebrew word ruʹach and the Greek word pneuʹma, and have a have a number of meanings and are used with reference to (1) wind, (2) the active life-force in earthly creatures, (3) the impelling force that issues from a person’s figurative heart and causes him to say and do things in a certain way, (4) inspired expressions originating from an invisible source, (5) spirit persons, and (6) God’s active force, or holy spirit.

So when we read the scriptures, we apply the 'original' meaning to the verse and that is why our teachings are different.

 

[Triumph]

John 1:28 All this happened at Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing. 29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Listen to Jesus, Jesus said why do you not hear MY words. Jesus never called himself a Lamb because he is not one.
Jesus did call himself the Shepherd so believe that. The Shepherd is not and never will be a Lamb.

John is helping to form the flock that follows Jesus and Jesus did not select John for that important position. GOD selected John the Baptist!
John is the "Lamb of God" that removes the sins of the world with water baptism. The Command of God is believe in that.
John saw Jesus and when Jesus approached John, John introduced himself to his Shepherd, as his Lamb that was dutifully preforming water baptisms to enable
people to receive Holy Sprit following their Shepherd Jesus that leads them to God.
John was not calling his beloved Shepherd, a "Lamb". Lambs need a Shepherd to lead them.

 

[Triumph]

I can tell you why... its because we base our understanding on the 'original' meaning of the words for soul and spirit. There is a difference between the hebrew words 'soul' and 'spirit'

Soul is from the hebrew word ne'phesh and in greek it is psy-khe. . Soul is used in the Bible to refer to (1) people, (2) animals, or (3) the life that a person or an animal has. “soul” in the Bible, both neʹphesh and psy·kheʹ, is always used in connection with earthly creatures and refers to material, tangible, visible, and mortal life.

Spirit is from the Hebrew word ruʹach and the Greek word pneuʹma, and have a have a number of meanings and are used with reference to (1) wind, (2) the active life-force in earthly creatures, (3) the impelling force that issues from a person’s figurative heart and causes him to say and do things in a certain way, (4) inspired expressions originating from an invisible source, (5) spirit persons, and (6) God’s active force, or holy spirit.

So when we read the scriptures, we apply the 'original' meaning to the verse and that is why our teachings are different.

Thanks for your explanation.

 

[Brian2]

I can tell you why... its because we base our understanding on the 'original' meaning of the words for soul and spirit. There is a difference between the hebrew words 'soul' and 'spirit'

Soul is from the hebrew word ne'phesh and in greek it is psy-khe. . Soul is used in the Bible to refer to (1) people, (2) animals, or (3) the life that a person or an animal has. “soul” in the Bible, both neʹphesh and psy·kheʹ, is always used in connection with earthly creatures and refers to material, tangible, visible, and mortal life.

Spirit is from the Hebrew word ruʹach and the Greek word pneuʹma, and have a have a number of meanings and are used with reference to (1) wind, (2) the active life-force in earthly creatures, (3) the impelling force that issues from a person’s figurative heart and causes him to say and do things in a certain way, (4) inspired expressions originating from an invisible source, (5) spirit persons, and (6) God’s active force, or holy spirit.

So when we read the scriptures, we apply the 'original' meaning to the verse and that is why our teachings are different.

Where do you get the original meanings?
What if your original meanings differ from later usage of the words?

 

[Brian2]

Listen to Jesus, Jesus said why do you not hear MY words. Jesus never called himself a Lamb because he is not one.
Jesus did call himself the Shepherd so believe that. The Shepherd is not and never will be a Lamb.

John is helping to form the flock that follows Jesus and Jesus did not select John for that important position. GOD selected John the Baptist!
John is the "Lamb of God" that removes the sins of the world with water baptism. The Command of God is believe in that.
John saw Jesus and when Jesus approached John, John introduced himself to his Shepherd, as his Lamb that was dutifully preforming water baptisms to enable
people to receive Holy Sprit following their Shepherd Jesus that leads them to God.
John was not calling his beloved Shepherd, a "Lamb". Lambs need a Shepherd to lead them.

What you say does not make sense in the light of what the passage says. John was referring to Jesus.

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ 31 I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”
32 Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33 And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One.”

 

[Bree]

Where do you get the original meanings?
What if your original meanings differ from later usage of the words?

If you dont read hebrew, you should use a good bible which has been translated directly from hebrew. And its true that as time progresses, so does language and the meanings attributed to words do change. But in that case, it should be the meaning which was prevalent at the time of writing that is used. Good translators will ensure they are basiing their bible translation on original languages


ruach: breath, wind, spirit
Original Word: רוּחַ
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: ruach
Phonetic Spelling: (roo'-akh)
Definition: breath, wind, spirit

 

[Brian2]

If you dont read hebrew, you should use a good bible which has been translated directly from hebrew. And its true that as time progresses, so does language and the meanings attributed to words do change. But in that case, it should be the meaning which was prevalent at the time of writing that is used. Good translators will ensure they are basiing their bible translation on original languages


ruach: breath, wind, spirit
Original Word: רוּחַ
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: ruach
Phonetic Spelling: (roo'-akh)
Definition: breath, wind, spirit

So with continued revelation (new light) it did become clear that the use in the Bible of ruach and nephesh and pneuma and psyche extended beyond what the JWs would have us believe.
Our spirit knows our mind. The souls of martyrs are seen in heaven.
Our soul lives after our body is killed.
It is the same with God's Spirit, God knows the mind of the Spirit and the Spirit knows the mind of God.
It all goes over the head of a JW of course.

 

[Triumph]

What you say does not make sense in the light of what the passage says. John was referring to Jesus.

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ 31 I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”
32 Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33 And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One.”

John was not referring to Jesus. John would not call the man that calls himself the "Shepherd", the leader sent to save lambs, a "lamb" that needs a leader. Lambs need to be saved. A lamb was used for slaughter to remove sins, John was sent by GOD to teach lamb slaughter does NOT remove sin, water baptism removes sin.
To imply that the death of Jesus removes sin would negate the entire purpose of being water baptized making what John does have no meaning at all and unnecessary. Jesus said John the Baptist was the greatest man born and that is because God sent John, the lamb to remove the sins of the world. John never taught Jesus must die for people to have their sins removed. John knew that was not true. Jesus never said my death will remove sin because it does not. Jesus commanded ALL nations, the entire world, to believe in water baptism for remission of sin. He would not do that if he wanted people to believe his death is going to remove their sins. Jesus never commanded anyone to believe his death would remove sin. Jesus whipped the temple priests because they were selling lambs for slaughter to remove sin.
Sin can not be transposed from a guilty life to an innocent one. That is hocus pocus and does not happen. The guilty are accountable for their sins/crimes and the innocent are to be free, not blamed for things they did not do. The innocent should never be punished and the guilty set free. To believe otherwise is inequity, injustice and God is true justice always.
Paul claimed Jesus was a bought and paid for ransom for sin but that concept infuriated Jesus because it makes the House of God a house of commerce. Paul said Jesus Christ is a son of man, son of David. Jesus denied that is true, Jesus said the Christ is a Son of God and no man is a God.
1 Timothy 2:6
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."
RANSOM = a sum of money or other payment demanded or paid for the release of a prisoner:
John 2:16
And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
Mark 11:17
And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves."
Jesus said all that came before him were robbers and thieves. Men go to war to take what does not belong to them like a thief.
Jesus told the temple leaders that refused to be water baptized for their sin removal they would not escape the wrath to come. ( Jesus was speaking as a people, all Jews ) That wrath is a man made Apocalypse, world nuclear war, that their sons that believe in animal sacrifice by tradition, today a red cow sacrifice to please their Lord God , will fight and die in it because it is an unwinnable by anyone war. It is a war of human extinction, End of Days war.

Matthew 20:28
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."
The Son of man is the expected Jewish Christ, son of David, that will lead an army to slaughter the enemies of his nation. He is sworn to forfeit his own life to save his country in war. He commands the enemy to obey the laws of HIS nation or die. He does NOT lead an army for that army to be ministered to, told what to do by the enemy.
Jesus refused to be a military commander, Son of man, for the Jews and told them to love their enemy so no war would happen. Jesus told them the Christ is the Son of God but they refused to believe it. Jews worship a man made wrathful Lord that commands war be fought.
Jesus worships the true God that commands love one another.

The person of lessor status introduces himself to the person of higher status as appropriate etiquette. John, the Lamb that removes sin, was introducing himself to his Shepherd that leads people to eternal life. After the introduction of himself to Jesus, John then speaks ABOUT Jesus to the people he had been baptizing in case they had not met him before so they will know Jesus is their Shepherd and they are his sheep, his flock.
A lamb does not lead sheep, John is not the leader, Shepherd, of the flock John is helping to form, and John points out that fact to people. His sheep know their Shepherd is not a lamb for slaughter' because they have learned what "I desire mercy and not sacrifice means".

 

[Triumph]

So with continued revelation (new light) it did become clear that the use in the Bible of ruach and nephesh and pneuma and psyche extended beyond what the JWs would have us believe.
Our spirit knows our mind. The souls of martyrs are seen in heaven.
Our soul lives after our body is killed.
It is the same with God's Spirit, God knows the mind of the Spirit and the Spirit knows the mind of God.
It all goes over the head of a JW of course.

You said, "The souls of martyrs are seen in heaven."
Genesis 1:20
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Psalms 8:8
The fowl of the air,
HEAVEN is AIR. Pilots that fly and fight in that air = heaven martyr themselves when shot down, a fallen messenger that proclaims obey my nation or die. thus they become a fallen angel.
A Seraphim with 6 wings is a fighter jet like a F-35 that flies with twain, DAS, placed in the exact places on the jet described in scripture and paced in 2 units each = twain. Then it flies with another jet, in twain = 2 jets, to use DAS to locate targets they intend to destroy = reap.
Isaiah 6:2
Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
Distributed Apperature System is also in the helmet of the pilot.
The distributed aperture system or DAS is one of the joint strike fighter’s signature capabilities — fusing high-resolution videos from the jet’s six infrared cameras inside the helmet of the pilot and allowing the operator to identify and track targets in both day and night.

 

[Bree]

So with continued revelation (new light) it did become clear that the use in the Bible of ruach and nephesh and pneuma and psyche extended beyond what the JWs would have us believe.
Our spirit knows our mind. The souls of martyrs are seen in heaven.
Our soul lives after our body is killed.
It is the same with God's Spirit, God knows the mind of the Spirit and the Spirit knows the mind of God.
It all goes over the head of a JW of course.

the context of the scripture makes clear the meaning. And it doesnt go over our head...we can see how the use of the word has changed but we dont agree that it should have been.

ruach is what it always has meant. The scriptures written back then, by the people who wrote them, have not changed. if Moses or Daniel were suddenly brought to life today, they would still have the same understanding of ruach as they had back then.

And God does not change,. He moved those men to penn the scriptures.... he has not changed meaning of the word.

 

[2ndpillar]

You said, "The souls of martyrs are seen in heaven."

The souls were seen "under the altar" in a vision, whereas death was described as someone on an "ashen horse" (Revelation 6:5-9). Death is actually not someone on an "ashen horse". It is a vision.

 

[Brian2]

John was not referring to Jesus. John would not call the man that calls himself the "Shepherd", the leader sent to save lambs, a "lamb" that needs a leader. Lambs need to be saved. A lamb was used for slaughter to remove sins, John was sent by GOD to teach lamb slaughter does NOT remove sin, water baptism removes sin.
To imply that the death of Jesus removes sin would negate the entire purpose of being water baptized making what John does have no meaning at all and unnecessary. Jesus said John the Baptist was the greatest man born and that is because God sent John, the lamb to remove the sins of the world. John never taught Jesus must die for people to have their sins removed. John knew that was not true. Jesus never said my death will remove sin because it does not. Jesus commanded ALL nations, the entire world, to believe in water baptism for remission of sin. He would not do that if he wanted people to believe his death is going to remove their sins. Jesus never commanded anyone to believe his death would remove sin. Jesus whipped the temple priests because they were selling lambs for slaughter to remove sin.
Sin can not be transposed from a guilty life to an innocent one. That is hocus pocus and does not happen. The guilty are accountable for their sins/crimes and the innocent are to be free, not blamed for things they did not do. The innocent should never be punished and the guilty set free. To believe otherwise is inequity, injustice and God is true justice always.
Paul claimed Jesus was a bought and paid for ransom for sin but that concept infuriated Jesus because it makes the House of God a house of commerce. Paul said Jesus Christ is a son of man, son of David. Jesus denied that is true, Jesus said the Christ is a Son of God and no man is a God.
1 Timothy 2:6
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."
RANSOM = a sum of money or other payment demanded or paid for the release of a prisoner:
John 2:16
And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
Mark 11:17
And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves."
Jesus said all that came before him were robbers and thieves. Men go to war to take what does not belong to them like a thief.
Jesus told the temple leaders that refused to be water baptized for their sin removal they would not escape the wrath to come. ( Jesus was speaking as a people, all Jews ) That wrath is a man made Apocalypse, world nuclear war, that their sons that believe in animal sacrifice by tradition, today a red cow sacrifice to please their Lord God , will fight and die in it because it is an unwinnable by anyone war. It is a war of human extinction, End of Days war.

Matthew 20:28
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."
The Son of man is the expected Jewish Christ, son of David, that will lead an army to slaughter the enemies of his nation. He is sworn to forfeit his own life to save his country in war. He commands the enemy to obey the laws of HIS nation or die. He does NOT lead an army for that army to be ministered to, told what to do by the enemy.
Jesus refused to be a military commander, Son of man, for the Jews and told them to love their enemy so no war would happen. Jesus told them the Christ is the Son of God but they refused to believe it. Jews worship a man made wrathful Lord that commands war be fought.
Jesus worships the true God that commands love one another.

The person of lessor status introduces himself to the person of higher status as appropriate etiquette. John, the Lamb that removes sin, was introducing himself to his Shepherd that leads people to eternal life. After the introduction of himself to Jesus, John then speaks ABOUT Jesus to the people he had been baptizing in case they had not met him before so they will know Jesus is their Shepherd and they are his sheep, his flock.
A lamb does not lead sheep, John is not the leader, Shepherd, of the flock John is helping to form, and John points out that fact to people. His sheep know their Shepherd is not a lamb for slaughter' because they have learned what "I desire mercy and not sacrifice means".

Jesus is the Son of the Father, equal in nature to the Father, whom Jesus calls the one true God.

 

[Brian2]

the context of the scripture makes clear the meaning. And it doesnt go over our head...we can see how the use of the word has changed but we dont agree that it should have been.

ruach is what it always has meant. The scriptures written back then, by the people who wrote them, have not changed. if Moses or Daniel were suddenly brought to life today, they would still have the same understanding of ruach as they had back then.

And God does not change,. He moved those men to penn the scriptures.... he has not changed meaning of the word.

What I meant is that the meaning has grown since Genesis and the meaning is in later parts of the Bible is different. I did not mean that the meaning is different today.
As I said, the souls of martyrs are under the altar in heaven in Revelation and they speak. That is a different meaning than the ones the JWs accept. It is clear that the JWs muck around with word meanings and teach lies to their members about those word meanings. This can be seen with a multitude of words, spirit, soul, hades, sheol, firstborn, kingdom etc.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Jesus is the Son of the Father, equal in nature to the Father..

..and Jesus taught that did he?
Where in the Bible, does Jesus claim that?

 

[Brian2]

..and Jesus taught that did he?
Where in the Bible, does Jesus claim that?

Why do you want the words of Jesus when you don't believe them when I give them to you?
Jesus did not say it directly but claimed that God is His Father which meant that, and the Jews knew what it meant and tried to stone Him for that claim.
Thomas also knew what the Jesus being the Son of God meant and in the end said that Jesus was his God.
Same eternal nature as His Father.
Hebrews 1:1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Jesus did not say it directly but claimed that God is His Father which meant that..

That's only your opinion.
I see that Jesus taught the Lord's prayer..

Our Father whom art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name..

God is my Father as well, but that does not make me "equal in nature".

 

[Brian2]

That's only your opinion.
I see that Jesus taught the Lord's prayer..

Our Father whom art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name..

God is my Father as well, but that does not make me "equal in nature".

There are different ways that God is the Father of all.
God created us all and is the Father of all spirits (Heb 12:9) and so is the Father of our spirits.
We are made in the image of God and so God is our Father in that way.
A Christian has been adopted as the child of God through receiving the Spirit of Christ (God's Spirit) which is united with our spirit.
Jesus is uncreated according to the Bible and has always been the Son of God because His life comes from His Father from eternity.
But if you do not believe the Bible then,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, it does not mean much to you.

 

[muhammad_isa]

But if you do not believe the Bible then,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, it does not mean much to you.

No .. that's just an excuse.
Plenty of Christians don't agree that Jesus is "equal in nature" to God.

Muhammad hadn't even been born when it was declared punishable heresy for Christians to believe that Jesus was not God.
..not convincing..

 

[Brian2]

No .. that's just an excuse.
Plenty of Christians don't agree that Jesus is "equal is nature" to God.

Muhammad hadn't even been born when it was declared punishable heresy for Christians to believe that Jesus was not God.
..not convincing..

Plenty of people have been deceived into believing that Jesus is not the Son of God. He is the Son of God in the way that it is consistent for Thomas to call Jesus "My God". (John 20:28)
Same nature.

 

[Bree]

Why do you want the words of Jesus when you don't believe them when I give them to you?
Jesus did not say it directly but claimed that God is His Father which meant that, .

So Jesus did not directly claim to be God, but because he said God is his 'father' it means that he was indirectly claiming that he is God?

You see what you did there?