Frank Goad
Well-Known Member
It says that in Daniel 12:2 people are sleeping in the dust.I think it is what the Jehovah's Witness believe.
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Daniel 12:2
- Thread starter Frank Goad
- Start date
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
In says that in Daniel 12:2 people are sleeping in the dust.I think it is what the Jehovah's Witness believe.
..and Jews .. and some Christians .. and some Muslims.
Brian2
Veteran Member
It says that in Daniel 12:2 people are sleeping in the dust.I think it is what the Jehovah's Witness believe.
All Christians should believe that but it does not mean that the body is all there is to a human or that the person disintegrates and disappears at death, which is what JWs believe.
Sleep is certainly not a annihilation of the person.
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
-Daniel 12-
I agree. The above verse shows that the concepts of heaven and hell are true.
Brian2
Veteran Member
If a person is held in contempt or abhorred, that does not mean that they are still existing.
So no, I don't think Dan 12:2 shows that the concept of hell is true.
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
You are ignoring the context..
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
In any case, you also believe in the NT don't you?
The NT explicitly refers to heaven and hell.
Brian2
Veteran Member
The New Testament refers to heaven as the place where God and the angels are but also says that God will come to earth to be with His people. (Rev 21:3)
The word translated as "hell" in some Bible is actually the place of the death souls and both the righteous and unrighteous go there till the resurrection.
Revelation mentions the Lake of Fire and this is called the second death. There seems to be suffering there but I personally do not think it last forever.
Isa 66:22 “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
I see this as the loathing that some will be resurrected to.
I think those who are not saved will be destroyed.
This is my opinion however.
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
Yes, we all have opinions and come to various different conclusions.
I ask you what a soul is?
I use the word 'soul' as meaning the non-physical part, as opposed to our physical body.
The idea that a soul is somehow created and destroyed is something that I find hard to visualise.
An atheist would claim that when they die, they die, and there is no such thing as a soul.
I am convinced that the soul cannot be destroyed.
The soul is a spiritual concept, as is God.
Our souls come from God.
The spiritual realm is eternal.
Belief in a soul being a temporary creation is possibly due to human ideas about Divine justice.
i.e. God will not let us suffer
The so-called "problem of evil" is not easy to understand, particularly if we render scripture in a literal fashion.
Almighty God wrongs nobody in the least .. it is mankind that wrongs themselves.
A person cannot be removed from "hell" if they do not repent.
A person who is unrepentant will carry on sinning, and wronging themselves.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Matt 10:28 And you should not be afraid of those killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. Indeed rather you should fear the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.
Gehenna is another word that is translated as "hell" in many translations.
God it seems can destroy a soul but I think there is suffering before the destruction is complete,,,,,,,,,,,assuming it is completed.
Rev 14:10................ And he will be tormented in fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. Day and night there is no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
It can be hard to say there is no hell with passages like this but it is the smoke the torment that rises forever, not the torment itself imo.
For me it is a matter of what God is like, and I don't think a loving God would do that to people.
I cannot prove my belief and there are others also which I cannot prove, they are hopes more than beliefs really.
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
..then I would imagine that it is not likely to happen to you, then
You believe in God, and have hope in His vast mercy.
Me too.
Mark La Buda
Member
I am curious as to what you mean by "concept of hell is true." I do not understand how the doctrine applies to this post.
Brian2
Veteran Member
I agree and that is why I posted as I did.
Maybe you should be asking Muhammad Isa (post 4) why he thinks Dan 12:2 shows the concept of hell.
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
Already done in post #6.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Mark La Buda
Member
Thank you for referring to the other post.
kjw47
Well-Known Member
It says that in Daniel 12:2 people are sleeping in the dust.I think it is what the Jehovah's Witness believe.
Because its true. Revelation is clear--the resurrection does not happen until after Har-mageddon
Triumph
FREEDOM OF SPEECH
Nuclear war destroys the soul with the hatred it instills making people want vengeance without mercy and it destroys the body because it damages DNA making children born with severe birth defects. Jesus taught against religious war and was willing to die to prevent one.
God wants none to fight over religion because religion is to be taught with love and compassion.
Rev 14, Please listen to Jesus and not men. Jesus called himself the Shepherd. Repeat that because people do not believe it when they call him a Lamb.
Jesus is not, never was and never will be a Lamb. The Lamb slain from the beginning is Abraham that defied God by creating his own Lord God to worship which made himself that Lord God. One of his followers supporting Abraham in the last war believing in that false God, is the Lamb calling himself the Christ, the winner of war. He is not and will be slain because he is the prince with nothing in him forewarned by Jesus. People will be tormented in radiation.
That does not mean his enemy will win either, none win WW3 but the Beast, War itself the 8th Head as all nations will fall from the results of it. That is why this is the last war on Earth, End of Days.
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
God has no "wrath" the worst God does is allow men to have wrath against each other by allowing free will. Humans cannot control the emotions of God so they are unable to cause God to have indignation, God is not a puppet that people control by what they say and do. God just views the Ignorance and cruelty of man and disagrees with it.
There are real "angels" that will view WW3 and the 12 Apostles are among them. They judge the actions of the Lamb, the supporter of human sacrifice and war to serve his desire for wealth and power. Each Apostle judges the actions of a tribe of Israel, 12 of them, from which those 144,000 arise to kill people.
The smoke that arises out of this war rises "forever" because it is unstoppable radiation. Nuclear Fission causes the self sustaining Fire of Hell. Man will be unable to control it.
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Brian2
Veteran Member
Why do JWs forget that humans are more than just dirt but then say that the body is not the soul in their religion even though the OT says that a dead body is a dead soul?
Eccles 12:6 Remember him—before the silver cord is severed,
and the golden bowl is broken;
before the pitcher is shattered at the spring,
and the wheel broken at the well,
7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.