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ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
If someone who is bound for an eternal damnation is fully known by God before they are created, why did God create them in the first place?

It's one of those questions that is never really answered so don't hold your breath in expectation of a revelation.

And

Welcome to RF, i hope you enjoy your time here.

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Ella S.

*temp banned*
I think it's interesting that so many theists focus on the metaphor of God being a father, when I think it would make more sense to treat God as a kind of cosmic artist. After all, the main defining feature of God is that he created everything, so it makes more sense to me to focus on the "creator" role.

I guess it depends on how personal you believe God is. Maybe viewing God as a father makes sense if that's how you relate to him in your personal relationship with him. From an outsider's perspective, though, if God is a father, he seems to be a very abusive and neglectful one.

Artists are pretty abusive with their creations, too. Over here we'll have a kid with bone cancer, over there we'll have a midnight tornado to kill off everyone living in that apartment block, over here we'll paint a rainbow with some happy little flowers... I'll write a side character whose only purpose in this story is to suffer and die to show the stakes the main character is up against. I'll design fake lakes in the middle of the desert so that when players go to them in an effort to lower their dehydration stat, they'll be too deep in the desert to find real water and die.

Why eternal damnation? Because it's a part of God's design. You think he wants to remedy our suffering? He's the one who created it for his own sick fantasies. And as Job learned, who are we to talk back? We can't stop him. We just have to let him use us as his cosmic playthings. Satan in Paradise Lost learns that one the hard way; theism is a cosmic horror story.

In my opinion, at least. I don't believe in God, but, even when I did, I could never believe that God was benevolent. Even as a kid, the problem of natural suffering was too glaring for me. If we should be grateful for our broccoli because there are children starving in Africa, why doesn't God give the African children the broccoli that the other kids don't want to eat? He has the power to, right? But he chooses not to help in any meaningful way. I used to imagine him sitting back and watching with a bag of popcorn on some fluffy cloud in Heaven, laughing at all the slaughter and torment in the world.

The only reason we call God "good" is because ancient people were terrified of God, so they praised him in the hope of earning his favor. That's why we still have the concept of the "fear of God" and the "act of God" to this day. It's why blasphemy is the gravest sin. After awhile, we ended up associating "good" with "obedience to God," and under that definition God is necessarily the most good. It's not any form of "goodness" we would recognize from our mortal standpoint, but who are we to challenge God's morality with our own? We don't have any way to counter his compelling might-makes-right demonstrations; we just have to keep our heads down and hope he doesn't kill our firstborn son to get at a local politician.

God created them because he wanted to watch them suffer. It's the only coherent answer. It's the one that people twist themselves in knots trying to avoid, but there's not really a way around it. Or there's no God, which is what I find myself concluding, but that's a separate conversation that doesn't have much to do with the Problem of Hell or the Problem of Evil.
 

mangalavara

सो ऽहम्
Premium Member
If someone who is bound for an eternal damnation is fully known by God before they are created, why did God create them in the first place?

John of Damascus (c. 675/676–749) in his work An Exposition of the Orthodox Faith has an answer to that question. From what I recall, his answer is that even though God already knew that some people would reject Christ, God makes them to exist anyway because if he were to not make them to exist in reaction to their rejection of Christ, it would mean that ‘they’ have victory over God. Seeing that no creature may have victory over him, he has to make them and let them suffer in the everlasting fire.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
If someone who is bound for an eternal damnation is fully known by God before they are created, why did God create them in the first place?
What if god feeds off of suffering? What if he cultivates what we experience of it in life as a sort of seasoning, and hell is his banquet to which all souls are destined?
 

endlessvoid2018

agnostic atheist
I don't believe in hell, or eternal damnation. I believe the concept of eternal damnation was more pronounced after Christianity
emerged to keep the masses in line and frighten anyone who questioned whether Christ truly was "divine," or not.

I think it would be reasonable to assume possibly that if there really was an "all loving, merciful god," that hell would
not need to be created in the first place.
 

HighSpinMfkzt

Merkabah Rider
It's possible that being made in the image of God we are able to create souls. This is called Traducianism and is an accepted doctrine in certain Christian theological circles. Since God is indivisible in both quality and nature, the creation of human souls cannot therefore be from some division beyond himself and not of his own substance and quality. It follows then that the creation of the human soul is the product of a merging and reconfiguration within God himself so therefore humanity, being made themselves in God's image and similarly constrained, would likewise generate and issue forth souls but not actually creating anything beyond divine providence. Thank you all for the warm welcome and all the interesting comments. Be blessed today.
 

HighSpinMfkzt

Merkabah Rider
I don't believe in hell, or eternal damnation. I believe the concept of eternal damnation was more pronounced after Christianity
emerged to keep the masses in line and frighten anyone who questioned whether Christ truly was "divine," or not.

I think it would be reasonable to assume possibly that if there really was an "all loving, merciful god," that hell would
not need to be created in the first place.
It's also interesting that Christ called it Gehenna. Which is Greek for the trash refuse in the Valley of Hinnom.
 

HighSpinMfkzt

Merkabah Rider
I think it's interesting that so many theists focus on the metaphor of God being a father, when I think it would make more sense to treat God as a kind of cosmic artist. After all, the main defining feature of God is that he created everything, so it makes more sense to me to focus on the "creator" role.

I guess it depends on how personal you believe God is. Maybe viewing God as a father makes sense if that's how you relate to him in your personal relationship with him. From an outsider's perspective, though, if God is a father, he seems to be a very abusive and neglectful one.

Artists are pretty abusive with their creations, too. Over here we'll have a kid with bone cancer, over there we'll have a midnight tornado to kill off everyone living in that apartment block, over here we'll paint a rainbow with some happy little flowers... I'll write a side character whose only purpose in this story is to suffer and die to show the stakes the main character is up against. I'll design fake lakes in the middle of the desert so that when players go to them in an effort to lower their dehydration stat, they'll be too deep in the desert to find real water and die.

Why eternal damnation? Because it's a part of God's design. You think he wants to remedy our suffering? He's the one who created it for his own sick fantasies. And as Job learned, who are we to talk back? We can't stop him. We just have to let him use us as his cosmic playthings. Satan in Paradise Lost learns that one the hard way; theism is a cosmic horror story.

In my opinion, at least. I don't believe in God, but, even when I did, I could never believe that God was benevolent. Even as a kid, the problem of natural suffering was too glaring for me. If we should be grateful for our broccoli because there are children starving in Africa, why doesn't God give the African children the broccoli that the other kids don't want to eat? He has the power to, right? But he chooses not to help in any meaningful way. I used to imagine him sitting back and watching with a bag of popcorn on some fluffy cloud in Heaven, laughing at all the slaughter and torment in the world.

The only reason we call God "good" is because ancient people were terrified of God, so they praised him in the hope of earning his favor. That's why we still have the concept of the "fear of God" and the "act of God" to this day. It's why blasphemy is the gravest sin. After awhile, we ended up associating "good" with "obedience to God," and under that definition God is necessarily the most good. It's not any form of "goodness" we would recognize from our mortal standpoint, but who are we to challenge God's morality with our own? We don't have any way to counter his compelling might-makes-right demonstrations; we just have to keep our heads down and hope he doesn't kill our firstborn son to get at a local politician.

God created them because he wanted to watch them suffer. It's the only coherent answer. It's the one that people twist themselves in knots trying to avoid, but there's not really a way around it. Or there's no God, which is what I find myself concluding, but that's a separate conversation that doesn't have much to do with the Problem of Hell or the Problem of Evil.
If I didn't have the choice to hate someone, would that mean I genuinely loved them? (also, God makes a pretty good mother as well)
 
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