Cripes! It’s Boris!

[siti]

Agreed.
And you refrained from saying "ad hom"!

Of course, often enough, comments on the
capabilities of a poster is entirely appropriate.

(not "you" personally here below)

You might even hope that your attorney, next
time you are in a third world s-hole country
on trial for a crime ya never done will have
the presence of mind to question the credibility
of, say, a first year biology student who is
testifying on medical matters.

Of course, he will shout back "AD HOM", the
judge will nod sagely, and you will be in big
trouble.

Am I the attorney or the first year biology student?

 

[Audie]

Am I the attorney or the first year biology student?

Ya gots a preference?

 

[siti]

Ya gots a preference?

Nah! I can advocate for reasonable argumentation at the same time as confidently testifying about things I know almost nothing about...that's why I am still on RF! And in good company it seems!

PS - it would still be interesting to know what is other people's take on the idea that pointing out (with evidence) that our new Conservative PM is demonstrably liberal with the truth can be dismissed as ad hominem. Are we all turning into a bunch of big R Republicans? Very scary!

 

[Darkforbid]

Interesting that you chose to respond to this comment:



...and not the one where I did respond with public domain evidence of Boris making false statements:



...so who is really dumb struck? Who is failing to make an argument? Boris deliberately misled the public in making false statements about the UK's EU contributions - lets make that argument...here's the evidence:

Now, instead of attacking me for attacking the person - perhaps you'd like to make a comment refuting the actual evidence that I posted...?

The total bill is around £350 million a week obviously we get money back like the instant rebate and the money the EU spends in the UK, which takes it down to around £173 million a week or just under 9 billion a year

Isn't that cheap, but if I asked you for a gross bill and you gave me a net bill would that be honest of you?

 

[siti]

The total bill is around £350 million a week obviously we get money back like the instant rebate and the money the EU spends in the UK, which takes it down to around £173 million a week or just under 9 billion a year

Isn't that cheap, but if I asked you for a gross bill and you gave me a net bill would that be honest of you?

Right - so the truthful figure was a little less than half what he had emblazoned on the campaign bus. And that is what the UK ACTUALLY PAYS to the EU.

So you get your utilities bill and the gross amount is $200 but you get a rebate of $100 so you only ACTUALLY PAY $100 - do you tell your wife the bill was $200 or $100? Which would be the truthful answer? And which would be a dishonest misrepresentation? And would it not be better if a country had a PM who was not inclined to make dishonest representations to the public? Sadly, about 60% of the Conservative Party membership don't think so - not that they were presented with much of a choice.

 

[siti]

The total bill is around £350 million a week obviously we get money back like the instant rebate and the money the EU spends in the UK, which takes it down to around £173 million a week or just under 9 billion a year

Isn't that cheap

Its about 3 pounds a week each...I'm pretty sure everyone on the UK will be more than 3 quid a week worse off when we're trading with our European partners on a much less preferential basis. I'm guessing just a few of the products we've become accustomed to over the last 40 years will add more than that to the weekly shopping bill - and that is probably the least of our worries - but not to worry - the new PM is sure its just a matter of "believing in ourselves" and having "more resolve" - well maybe he's right...he got sacked from the Times for lying, then he got sacked from Michael Howard's shadow cabinet for lying...but he continued resolutely lying his way all the way to Number 10...so maybe that's the solution - we all just lie to ourselves and everything will be OK.

 

[Darkforbid]

Right - so the truthful figure was a little less than half what he had emblazoned on the campaign bus. And that is what the UK ACTUALLY PAYS to the EU.

So you get your utilities bill and the gross amount is $200 but you get a rebate of $100 so you only ACTUALLY PAY $100 - do you tell your wife the bill was $200 or $100? Which would be the truthful answer? And which would be a dishonest misrepresentation? And would it not be better if a country had a PM who was not inclined to make dishonest representations to the public? Sadly, about 60% of the Conservative Party membership don't think so - not that they were presented with much of a choice.

Depends on if the on if the 'wife' asked 'what was the gross or net bill' and we pay around 250 million a week not half, we get the other in EU investment which amounts to the EU deciding where 77 million a week is spent in the UK

 

[Darkforbid]

Its about 3 pounds a week each...I'm pretty sure everyone on the UK will be more than 3 quid a week worse off when we're trading with our European partners on a much less preferential basis. I'm guessing just a few of the products we've become accustomed to over the last 40 years will add more than that to the weekly shopping bill - and that is probably the least of our worries - but not to worry - the new PM is sure its just a matter of "believing in ourselves" and having "more resolve" - well maybe he's right...he got sacked from the Times for lying, then he got sacked from Michael Howard's shadow cabinet for lying...but he continued resolutely lying his way all the way to Number 10...so maybe that's the solution - we all just lie to ourselves and everything will be OK.

It's about £7.50 a week, based on working population, and still an extra £250 million a week we can spend in our own country

 

[Darkforbid]

Its about 3 pounds a week each...I'm pretty sure everyone on the UK will be more than 3 quid a week worse off when we're trading with our European partners on a much less preferential basis. I'm guessing just a few of the products we've become accustomed to over the last 40 years will add more than that to the weekly shopping bill - and that is probably the least of our worries - but not to worry - the new PM is sure its just a matter of "believing in ourselves" and having "more resolve" - well maybe he's right...he got sacked from the Times for lying, then he got sacked from Michael Howard's shadow cabinet for lying...but he continued resolutely lying his way all the way to Number 10...so maybe that's the solution - we all just lie to ourselves and everything will be OK.

Oh and You are resorting back to type, with liar, liar, liar so my first post to you was true

 

[siti]

Oh and You are resorting back to type, with liar, liar, liar so my first post to you was true

Is anything I wrote not factual? Or are you reverting type with "ad hom, ad hom, ad hom" in response to factual information? What's your next gambit - "fake news" - or maybe a more English "piffle" - that's another of Boris' famous quotes - look that one up and tell me he's an honest man.

 

[siti]

It's about £7.50 a week, based on working population, and still an extra £250 million a week we can spend in our own country

Except that you won't have it - unless you find a way of doing tariff free trade with conveniently located partners that costs the UK less to do business with than the EU. And that's the biggest lie of all - the idea - still being sold to the UK public - that "frictionless trade" with Europe can continue post-Brexit. If that turns out to be true, I'll gladly forgive Boris all the other porkies and openly declare him to be the best PM ever in British history - even if he does, in his own words, have "more in common with a three-toed sloth" than he does with Winston Churchill. I doubt I'll have to eat my words, even if you guys insist on swallowing every one of his.

PS - I'm not going any deeper into the economic aspects - my US keyboard doesn't have a pound sign.

PPS - I am pretty sure the three-toed sloth thing was true - he wasn't lying about that.

 

[Darkforbid]

Is anything I wrote not factual? Or are you reverting type with "ad hom, ad hom, ad hom" in response to factual information? What's your next gambit - "fake news" - or maybe a more English "piffle" - that's another of Boris' famous quotes - look that one up and tell me he's an honest man.

Did you notice I answered your firsts question! You however are playing evade then skander, so know I can't be arsed continuing

 

[siti]

Did you notice I answered your firsts question!

And I replied. Anyway - up to you if you can't be arsed to think a bit more carefully about the quality of the tripe you are buying.

 

[Darkforbid]

And I replied. Anyway - up to you if you can't be arsed to think a bit more carefully about the quality of the tripe you are buying.

It's 5am here, and I've been up for well over 30 hours already but you could tell me why your for importing sub minimum wage workers from the EU

 

[siti]

It's 5am here, and I've been up for well over 30 hours already but you could tell me why your for importing sub minimum wage workers from the EU

That's a slightly different topic...but wages are a UK matter not an EU matter - and immigration from EU countries is less than from elsewhere in the world. I do understand what you are saying though - the last time I stayed in London I was not served in any restaurant, transport system, hotel or shop by an English person. I have no personal problem with their 'foreignness' but I do wonder how that happens when there's over a million unemployed. But wages are a UK problem - wages are not dictated by the EU...and I certainly don't think leaving the EU is going to solve that - there have been large immigrant communities in the UK who were willing to take lower wages and live in less satisfactory conditions than most of 'us' would accept - and that's been happening from long before we joined the EU.

Obviously leaving the EU allows the UK to impose stricter immigration conditions on migrants from Europe...but how does that prevent employers from paying sub-minimum wages to migrant workers from elsewhere?

PS - of those who served me that I actually asked, 1 was from Greece (hotel receptionist), one from Spain (waitress) and 1 from Romania (shop worker) - 2 were from Georgia, (a hotel concierge and a man who worked in the restaurant) and 1 from Pakistan (shop worker) - so about half from EU and half from elsewhere - which might not be far off the mark of the actual workers in the UK who were born outside the UK. Among the total non-UK born population of the UK, 39% are from EU countries - the rest from elsewhere (2017 figures).

 

[Darkforbid]

That's a slightly different topic...but wages are a UK matter not an EU matter - and immigration from EU countries is less than from elsewhere in the world. I do understand what you are saying though - the last time I stayed in London I was not served in any restaurant, transport system, hotel or shop by an English person. I have no personal problem with their 'foreignness' but I do wonder how that happens when there's over a million unemployed. But wages are a UK problem - wages are not dictated by the EU...and I certainly don't think leaving the EU is going to solve that - there have been large immigrant communities in the UK who were willing to take lower wages and live in less satisfactory conditions than most of 'us' would accept - and that's been happening from long before we joined the EU. I just don't see immigration as a particularly EU issue and if that's what people's decision to for for Brexit was based on, again I believe they were sadly misinformed.

I said importing sub minimum wage workers, not immigration but using the standard your using for Boris:

You said

immigration from EU countries is less than from elsewhere in the world.

The truth is

• There were an estimated 2.27 million EU nationals working in the UK, 61,000 fewer than for a year earlier.
  
  
• There were an estimated 1.29 million non-EU nationals working in the UK, 130,000 more than for a year earlier.

The figures from October to December 2018 show, you're a liar

You said

I stayed in London I was not served in any restaurant, transport system, hotel or shop by an English person. I have no personal problem with their 'foreignness'

Most are working under job agency contracts and therefore can be paid less than minimum wage

Then you carry on with:

but I do wonder how that happens when there's over a million unemployed. But wages are a UK problem - wages are not dictated by the EU...and I certainly don't think leaving the EU is going to solve that - there have been large immigrant communities in the UK who were willing to take lower wages and live in less satisfactory conditions than most of 'us' would accept - and that's been happening from long before we joined the EU. I just don't see immigration as a particularly EU issue and if that's what people's decision to for for Brexit was based on, again I believe they were sadly misinformed.

I know wages aren't dictated by the EU, but how can 2.27 million EU cheep worker not be a EU problem

'Things changed when eastern and central European nations joined in 2004 and the UK (unlike Germany and others) chose not to exercise a seven-year block on workers from these poorer countries accessing the UK's labour market.'

 

[siti]

The figures from October to December 2018 show, you're a liar

OK - you're right that I responded to the wrong thing - but you have continued talking about foreign workers to refute my immigration figures (my apologies for confusing the issue)...anyways, you're right that there are more EU nationals than non-EU nationals working in the UK...my point about that is why would employers choose non-UK nationals from anywhere instead of UK nationals...because...perhaps...at least in part...

Most are working under job agency contracts and therefore can be paid less than minimum wage

...and who controls how job agencies are allowed to give contracts in the UK that undercut the minimum wage in the UK? UK or EU?

 

[siti]

BTW...

...using the standard your using for Boris

I'm flattered that you feel I am important enough to be held to the same standard as the person entrusted to lead the country...but, as you might have noticed, I'm not the Prime Minister.

 

[Darkforbid]

OK - you're right that I responded to the wrong thing - but you have continued talking about foreign workers to refute my immigration figures (my apologies for confusing the issue)...anyways, you're right that there are more EU nationals than non-EU nationals working in the UK...my point about that is why would employers choose non-UK nationals from anywhere instead of UK nationals...because...perhaps...at least in part...

...and who controls how job agencies are allowed to give contracts in the UK that undercut the minimum wage in the UK? UK or EU?

We do, but the EU freedom to move and work anywhere in the EU is what gives them access

 

[siti]

We do, but the EU freedom to move and work anywhere in the EU is what gives them access

I get that, but would it not have been a tad cheaper to tighten the regulations to prevent sub-minimum wage 'blackbirding' (look that one up) - rather than throwing an entire four decades of investment and commitment to the European economic project into the rubbish bin?