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Creationists: what prevents you from accepting ToE?

Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
What you have described is not "choosing," though; people have repeatedly tried to correct your misunderstanding of reality, yet you persist in reading choice into events that involve no known conscious actor. When people speak of "direction" or "trajectory" with respect to evolution, it is simply shorthand to describe how events actually unfolded, not to suggest that they were directed or designed with some end point in mind.

.Before, Darwinists generally denied that free will is real, including free will of people, that it is an illusion, a fantasy. Then lately they went one step further and argued that instead of free will not being real, they said that free will has the logic of being forced, cause and effect. (compatibilism)

The only practically functional concept of free will is the creationist concept of it, where the spirit chooses, and the existence of the spirit is a matter of opinion. That is the same logic as used in common discourse, and in courts of law, in democracy. The motivation of a decision is regarded as a matter of opinion. What emotions are in somebody's heart is a matter of opinion, not fact.

You are totally ignorant about how choosing works.
 

Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
All the information required to debunk what you are advocating is contained in that cut and paste, the proof is in the reading ... did you bother? Did you respond to the answers? Of course you did not, because at root level you are dishonest and are more concerned with trying to make your losing case than you are with understanding the reality of the universe around you.

You have not even read my postings. I already said, that in effect I helped write part of that index claim. I caused the hundreds of thousands and millions to be added.

You are dishonest. I don't pull stuff like you do here.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
You have not even read my postings. I already said, that in effect I helped write part of that index claim. I caused the hundreds of thousands and millions to be added.
Thank you for your service, your ego and self-importance precedes you.
You are dishonest. I don't pull stuff like you do here.
I am dishonest? Hardly. I have clearly documented where you have maintained views without dealing with the clearly defined objections. Pretending that the objections do not exist is dishonest. Please indicate how I have been dishonest to anything by presenting some evidence other than your personal internal delusions.
 

Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
Thank you for your service, your ego and self-importance precedes you.

I am dishonest? Hardly. I have clearly documented where you have maintained views without dealing with the clearly defined objections. Pretending that the objections do not exist is dishonest. Please indicate how I have been dishonest to anything by presenting some evidence other than your personal internal delusions.

That is not about my ego, that is about that I have obviously already read and dealt with that index claim previously in helping make it.

So you have been dishonest by not even reading what I write, and then accusing me of not reading the index claim. A morality to read relevant things must be to read all relevant things, and not just those things that suit your prejudice. My posting was relevant, you did not read it. So it means you are prejudiced to only read things which suit your prejudices.

But ofcourse it was not just 1 single dishonesty, it is a torrent of dishonesty. Your emotional basis that you bring to the issue, quite transparantly for everybody as far as I can tell, is a bunch of prejudices. I think we all know what you are going to say next, we all know that it will just be another prejudice. It is blatant, open, it is simply expected of evolutionists that they are totally prejudiced.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
That is not about my ego, that is about that I have obviously already read and dealt with that index claim previously in helping make it.
It is not clear to me what role you actually played in "making it" but understanding it was obviously not included.
So you have been dishonest by not even reading what I write, and then accusing me of not reading the index claim.
If you have read it than you would either agree with it or dispute it in detail, you do neither.
A morality to read relevant things must be to read all relevant things, and not just those things that suit your prejudice. My posting was relevant, you did not read it. So it means you are prejudiced to only read things which suit your prejudices.
I read all that you wrote, you may think it relevant, but I disagree. I am not, in fact, prejudiced. I do not prejudge ... I weigh data and continuously revise my opinions and thinking based on new input. You just fail to meet the bar for the quality of data that I require, you see I have a very open mind ... just no so far open that my brains fall out.
But ofcourse it was not just 1 single dishonesty, it is a torrent of dishonesty. Your emotional basis that you bring to the issue, quite transparantly for everybody as far as I can tell, is a bunch of prejudices.
I'd have to guess that as far as you can tell is measurable in microns rather than parsecs?
I think we all know what you are going to say next, we all know that it will just be another prejudice. It is blatant, open, it is simply expected of evolutionists that they are totally prejudiced.
And what is it that you prognosticate? This is incredibly foolish ... I am part of an intellectual tradition that changes every moment as new learning is available, you are part of a primitive belief system that has attempted to remain pure and unchanged since the mid seventh century and yet you have the unmitigated gall to accuse me of prejudice, dishonesty and emotionalism.
 

Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
It is not clear to me what role you actually played in "making it"

Well then perhaps you should read my posting where I had explained that.

See now you are making the dishonest insinuation that I pretend to have more to do with it than I did, while I have already exactly stated what I had to do with it. I said it in the posting which you haven't read, to which you replied with questioning if I had read the index to creationist claims.

It is dishonesty stacked upon dishonesty, so it goes, ad infintie, total perfidity.

And this, as my experience shows, is usual for evolutionists. Some well known evolutionist on talk.origins references a history book saying there is nothing in it about Darwinism. I go to the library and read the book, and the historian treats Darwinism as the main thing in the chapter on ideology. Then the historian emails some evolutionist saying that the rise of pseudobiological racism is inconceivable without the intellectual climate of opinion that developed as a result of the darwinian revolution, then they say to agree with that. Then a month later they say it is nonsense. And then for 2 years saying they are working on a faq about darwinism and nazism, and then finally saying, there is no material about it.[/quote][/QUOTE]
 

NulliuSINverba

Active Member
Screeching shows a lack of emotional depth.

While changing the subject out of the gate shows the lack of a valid answer.

...

Let's set aside for a moment that you failed to answer the question, OK? If you were seriously startled by the "screeching" (read: capitalization of a single word), please accept my virtual apology. I'll try to take your delicate sensibilities into account the next time 'round and either issue a warning prior to any such capitalization ... or I'll employ italics for emphasis.

The evolutionist mindset is dominated by thinking of organisms "struggling for" survival, and reproductive "success".

While creationists simply consider the lilies?

Mutations which provide an "advantage", that are "good" for the organism. The "selfishness" of genes.

Not all mutations provide an advantage, do they?

Evolutionists use a whole lot of terms which are normally used emotively, subjectively, but they use the terms in a matter of fact way.

Couldn't you at least cite a single example of what you're talking about?

To make what is good, loving and beautiful into a matter of fact issue makes people feel high.

Unsubstantiated.

The brain produces drugs by the way of thinking.

Unsubstantiated.

You can just try it for yourself, assert some (scientific) factual certitude about what is good, loving and beautiful, you will feel that smug high, high like a monkey in a coconut tree.

OK. I'll try it:

"God is good, loving, and beautiful.

Wow. You're right! I did feel exactly like a monkey in a coconut tree!

Hmm. Is that evidence of evolution?
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
Then nothing, just as when there was no link between darwinism and nazism, then also nothing. After you honestly investigated it, then you have the truth of it.
If that's the case, then I'm not sure why you even bring the Nazis up at all.
You know that evolution theory is phrased emotively (you are an organism in a struggle for survival, and this struggle results in differential reproductive success) , by professional biologists, not just laypeople. You knew it, and you ignored it. You downplayed it by suggesting evolution theory is just like gravity theory, which is not phrased emotively. That is arguing towards prejudice.
I don't think I see what being phrased emotively has to do with evolutionary theory's validity. Could you expound upon that, please? I'm guessing that you don't accept micro-evolution either?

You have said a lot about how emotion is important in searching for the truth. If you are speaking in terms of spiritual truth, I can see why you would say that. However, I don't understand how emotion plays an important role in determining truths of the physical world. If I wanted to find out what the chemical composition of a rock is or what the diameter of a distant star is, how would emotions play into that at all?
 
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Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
I don't think I see what being phrased emotively has to do with evolutionary theory's validity.

The issue wasn't the validity of evolution theory, the issue was Darwinism and Nazism.

See, you are suddenly mysteriously forgetful of what the issue was. And that you forget serves your prejudice.

And the issue wasn't even Darwinism and Nazism, but it was about the lack of honesty of evolutionists.
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
The issue wasn't the validity of evolution theory, the issue was Darwinism and Nazism.

See, you are suddenly mysteriously forgetful of what the issue was. And that you forget serves your prejudice.
Actually, it would seem that I didn't know what the issue was about in the first place. I thought you were trying to undermine evolutionary theory by saying that it caused the Holocaust or something. My mistake.
And the issue wasn't even Darwinism and Nazism, but it was about the lack of honesty of evolutionists.
I haven't been dishonest. I told you that I don't know if there is a connection between Darwinism and Nazism or not, and that's the truth.
 
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Sapiens

Polymathematician
Well then perhaps you should read my posting where I had explained that.
I read it, I saw nothing that I would credit as you claim it to be. So I requested clarification.
See now you are making the dishonest insinuation that I pretend to have more to do with it than I did, while I have already exactly stated what I had to do with it.
Which as far as I can tell was nothing at all. You were not an author, your were, at best, a foil and that is undocumented.
I said it in the posting which you haven't read, to which you replied with questioning if I had read the index to creationist claims.
I still question if you have actually read it, but perhaps reading comprehension is not your long suit.
It is dishonesty stacked upon dishonesty, so it goes, ad infintie, total perfidity.
That's Ad infinitum. Perhaps reading comprehension is the issue here and I was giving you more credit than you deserved.
And this, as my experience shows, is usual for evolutionists. Some well known evolutionist
Who precisely?
on talk.origins references a history book
What book, precisely?
saying there is nothing in it about Darwinism. I go to the library and read the book, and the historian
Who is the historian?
treats Darwinism as the main thing in the chapter on ideology. Then the historian emails some evolutionist
Who is the evolutionist?ou
saying that the rise of pseudobiological racism is inconceivable without the intellectual climate of opinion that developed as a result of the darwinian revolution, then they say to agree with that.
Who is "they" that agreed?
Then a month later they say it is nonsense. And then for 2 years saying they are working on a faq about darwinism and nazism,
Again, to whom are you referring? Name please.
and then finally saying, there is no material about it.
Perhaps that decided that the idea was complete BS, they do not owe you a briefing.

You have an overwhelming pronoun problem that you need to solve if you want anyone to take you seriously.
 

Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
Wow. You're right! I did feel exactly like a monkey in a coconut tree!

Hmm. Is that evidence of evolution?

You did not try it. This is serious, this is a big thing, the knowledge of good and evil is the original sin. When you make what is good, loving and beautiful into a fact, then you circumvent your emotions, and yes, you will feel high. You can try it, and it is shown true.

You have to be a bit reasonable about what are matters of opinion, and what are matters of fact. And love, hate, God, the soul, for those it is categorically a matter of opinion if they are real or not, because they choose. Whether planets, leprechauns, evolution, are real, those are matters of fact. Regardless of whether the fact is that they are real, or not real, it is categorically a matter of fact, because they are chosen, created.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
You have to be a bit reasonable about what are matters of opinion, and what are matters of fact. And love, hate, God, the soul, for those it is categorically a matter of opinion if they are real or not, because they choose. Whether planets, leprechauns, evolution, are real, those are matters of fact. Regardless of whether the fact is that they are real, or not real, it is categorically a matter of fact, because they are chosen, created.
Love and hate are a matter of opinion? God is a matter of opinion but leprechauns are a matter of fact? Did someone whack you over your head with a shillelagh?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Love and hate are a matter of opinion? God is a matter of opinion but leprechauns are a matter of fact? Did someone whack you over your head with a shillelagh?
Way too much Guinness. You shoulda split them with me.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
You are obviously lying. If you had read my posting, then you would not have questioned if I had read the index claim or not.
Let's make it simple enough for you to understand. If you make a post that says the sky is green and I suggest to you a web site that demonstrates that the sky is blue and that, furthermore, explains why the sky is blue and yet you continue to demand that the sky is green without addressing the content of the site the site that explains why the sky is blue, then you are dishonest and I have the right to ask if you really read the site. This is directly analogous to all of your positions.
 

Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
Let's make it simple enough for you to understand. If you make a post that says the sky is green and I suggest to you a web site that demonstrates that the sky is blue and that, furthermore, explains why the sky is blue and yet you continue to demand that the sky is green without addressing the content of the site the site that explains why the sky is blue, then you are dishonest and I have the right to ask if you really read the site. This is directly analogous to all of your positions.

That is bogus. And you also lied that you had read my posting.

This is what i wrote in the posting:
There did appear something of a faq eventually, the evolutionists of talk.origins published the book "index to creationist claims", which had a claim about Hitler. In this book the evolutionists asserted that it appeared Hitler was apparently a young earth creationist, based on a quote of Hitler in a book, where he talked about people existing for "thousands" of years. Then I pointed out that in the same book Hitler talked about hundreds of thousands of years of higher development. They then changed the claim to add that Hitler talked about hundreds of thousands of years "in another context", and that in another print it talked about millions of years, but still leaving in it the assertion that Hitler once may have believed in a young earth, so as that now the claim doesn't really make any sense"

And then later you said:
It is not clear to me what role you actually played in "making it" .

Very clearly you are lying by implying all the time, that you have read what I wrote. And then further you went all moral about how I did not read the index claim, while you did not read what I wrote, and lied about it.

It is further dishonesty, that when I repeated part of what I originally wrote, you then responded with questions to the part I repeated, instead of what you should have done, which is to question the more extensive original post. If you had any emotional basis, you would know this is the honest thing to do.

And further your questioning is vacuous, that is also dishonest. Your questions are a debating tactic to provide a lot of work, and not really engage the issue. Lawyers and politicians use tricks like that, ask a million question just to keep your opponent occupied, without any sincere interest whatsoever in the answers.

Why don't you engage the very obvious peculiarity that in the index claim you posted, it talks about Hitler as once believing in a young earth, while in the same book he talks about hundreds of thousands of years, and in a later print millions of years? .......
 
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Sapiens

Polymathematician
That is bogus. And you also lied that you had read my posting.
I read hundreds of pages every day, why would I lie about reading your minuscule posts? I read them, but I saw no link between what you posted and what you claimed, so I requested clarification ... instead I get abuse ... I guess that's your type of Islamic hospitality?
This is what i wrote in the posting:
There did appear something of a faq eventually, the evolutionists of talk.origins published the book "index to creationist claims", which had a claim about Hitler. In this book the evolutionists asserted that it appeared Hitler was apparently a young earth creationist, based on a quote of Hitler in a book, where he talked about people existing for "thousands" of years. Then I pointed out that in the same book Hitler talked about hundreds of thousands of years of higher development. They then changed the claim to add that Hitler talked about hundreds of thousands of years "in another context", and that in another print it talked about millions of years, but still leaving in it the assertion that Hitler once may have believed in a young earth, so as that now the claim doesn't really make any sense"
You need to tell us who and what all the unidentified pronouns refer to.
And then later you said:
It is not clear to me what role you actually played in "making it" .

Very clearly you are lying by implying all the time, that you have read what I wrote. And then further you went all moral about how I did not read the index claim, while you did not read what I wrote, and lied about it.

It is further dishonesty, that when I repeated part of what I originally wrote, you then responded with questions to the part I repeated, instead of what you should have done, which is to question the more extensive original posts. If you had any emotional basis, you would know this is the honest thing to do.

And further your questioning is vacuous, that is also dishonest. Your questions are a debating tactic to provide a lot of work, and not really engage the issue. Lawyers and politicians use tricks like that, ask a million question just to keep your opponent occupied, without any sincere interest whatsoever in the answers.

Why don't you engage the very obvious peculiarity that in the index claim you posted, it talks about Hitler as once believing in a young earth, while in the same book he talks about hundreds of thousands of years, and in a later print millions of years? .......
What book?
 

Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
I read hundreds of pages every day, why would I lie about reading your minuscule posts? I read them, but I saw no link between what you posted and what you claimed, so I requested clarification ... instead I get abuse ... I guess that's your type of Islamic hospitality?
You need to tell us who and what all the unidentified pronouns refer to.
What book?

The pronouns show that I was not egotripping at all as you insinuate, dishonestly, the pronouns show that I gave credit to the evolutionists. They published this index to creationist claims as a book.

You lie because it suits your prejudices. The emotions you bring to the issue, are nothing but prejudices, because you don't care about your own emotions. That is how evolutionists operate, they surpress their own emotions, brutalize them, and then they are solely focused on facts. And then what happens is, the surpressed emotions degenerate into prejudices, and the evolutionists only sees facts that suit their prejudices.

That is the reason also, you don't mention anything whatsoever what is outside of your prejudices, like the peculiarity in the index claim you posted. The index claim which you obviously haven't read yourself, otherwise you would have noticed that peculiarity in it.
 

Midnight Rain

Well-Known Member
The pronouns show that I was not egotripping at all as you insinuate, dishonestly, the pronouns show that I gave credit to the evolutionists. They published this index to creationist claims as a book.

You lie because it suits your prejudices. The emotions you bring to the issue, are nothing but prejudices, because you don't care about your own emotions. That is how evolutionists operate, they surpress their own emotions, brutalize them, and then they are solely focused on facts. And then what happens is, the surpressed emotions degenerate into prejudices, and the evolutionists only sees facts that suit their prejudices.

That is the reason also, you don't mention anything whatsoever what is outside of your prejudices, like the peculiarity in the index claim you posted. The index claim which you obviously haven't read yourself, otherwise you would have noticed that peculiarity in it.
As an evolutionist I can say I do not suppress my emotions. My emotions are very important in my own path. I could not function as a witch if I had suppressed my emotions. But that does not change the fact that evolution is true.
 
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