Creationist - what is your understanding of TOE?

[tumbleweed41]

Are you talking about the bible? Cuz I sure wasn't.

Sorry, it seemed you initially replied to my remark on literal interpretations of ancient reveled revelations, as in the OT, Bible, Torah, etc...

 

[Thief]

Yes, but there were plenty of others who did so before him. There were pre-Aristotelians like Anaximenes and Xenophanes who proposed versions of spontaneous generation.


How do you mean "dispute"? She's an extinct hominid who walked the planet over 3 m.y.a. If you're referring to controversies over where australopithecus afarensis belongs as an ancestor or the mechanics of her locomotion then yes, there are "disputes".


This is exactly how science works and why science is the most successful means of examining the world. Science is not dogmatic, it is based on empirical evidence and is subject to change based on further supporting or conflicting empirical evidence. Science changes because our means of examining the universe becomes more and more precise and hypotheses are repeated over and over and some are substantiated while others are refined in favor of better evidence and more clarifying explanations.

Science works for the very reason many here are criticizing it- that is, it works so well because it's not dogma, it is amendable to empirical inquiry and changes based on better evidence.

You assume I don't understand science.
On the contrary....

And you assume science trumps faith...
it does not.

Science displays how God did it.

Genesis...Day Six...stands as is.
Genesis...Chapter Two... stands as is.

 

[Rakhel]

Sorry, it seemed you initially replied to my remark on literal interpretations of ancient reveled revelations, as in the OT, Bible, Torah, etc...

Tumbleweed, simply because I am Jewish does not mean I am a creationist. I do have the ability to understand what evolution is and how it differs from creationism.
I never fully bought the "we were created out of nothing" or the "we evolved ."
I don't think we have the knowledge to understand either, yet. and find what some rabbis to say true when they say Evolution explains the "How" while Creationism explains the "Why"
But I find when I say this that I am "ignoring science." It is quite insulting to those of us that see both as possible explanations of the same event.

Please stop attacking the belief system.

 

[tumbleweed41]

My reply to PW

Well said.
The most exciting part is that we have so much more to find out.
And to ignore the quest for knowledge based on ancient reveled revelations is to wallow in ignorance and reject the wonders of our natural world.

ancient revelations? oy vey.
again, let me know when they finally get it right.

Or should I say, literalistic interpretations of 2,400+ year old writings as a basis for understanding the natural world.

Are you talking about the bible? Cuz I sure wasn't.

Sorry, it seemed you initially replied to my remark on literal interpretations of ancient reveled revelations, as in the OT, Bible, Torah, etc...

Tumbleweed, simply because I am Jewish does not mean I am a creationist. I do have the ability to understand what evolution is and how it differs from creationism.
I never fully bought the "we were created out of nothing" or the "we evolved ."
I don't think we have the knowledge to understand either, yet. and find what some rabbis to say true when they say Evolution explains the "How" while Creationism explains the "Why"
But I find when I say this that I am "ignoring science." It is quite insulting to those of us that see both as possible explanations of the same event.

Please stop attacking the belief system.

Not once did I "attack" you or your belief system. Nor did I ever imply that , as a follower of Judaism, you are a Creationist.
I was replying to PW, and commented on the YEC and ID reliance on literalistic interpretations of the Bible, OT, Torah, etc, in their efforts to ignore scientific reality.

I do not see how you misconstrued my comments to be an attack on you or your beliefs.

 

[Bereanz]

Well in that case your "thorough explanation" is complete garbage because except at the most superficial level of "species change over time and become other species" the ancient views on evolution provide no basis for the modern theory of evolution.

There is no "pagan belief" in the theory of evolution, what there actually is when you look at it is the application of the scientific method to observable evidence. This is a diametric opposite to the lies in what you posted.



So you don't understand the Theory that you criticise (not that this was not pretty clear before but thanks for confirming it).

I've promised to go since apparently I'm a troll for not believing in Evolution, but just remember this, Christianity is not theistic Evolution, and you're critisisng me for not believing it and yet you think you can get away with calling yourself a Christian. I don't care if you say there are many Christian's who aren't literalists or there are many Satanists or JW's or mormons or whoseoever's that aren't literalists . You might say they/you are a Christan, but they/are not. I suppose you're one of these "I've got my fire insurance from JC "christians" are you? Or dont you believe in that either? You're not fooling anyone but yourself, and quite a few people in here unfortunately.

I suggest you change your religion to an agnostic evolutonist, (what you believe in does not equate with theism let alone Christianity, unless your god is a cosmic snail with a bucket and spade, that is.) There is no place for what you believe and teach as far it pertains to the bible and bona fide Christianity which is a Biblical belief system. Ok mate, hopefully weve got that straight.

And to the poster who thinks "Christian's" dont get on well, or demontsrate very good christian behaviour between one another, or what ever else it is you think, well, again, belief in Evolution has no part with Christianity. Why you die hard "No God Evolutionists" think it does, is amusing. I suppose you'll take any one you can get if they go along with the party line to some extent. Its probably even better if they make Christianity look bad while there at it.

The amusing thing is, it's the so called "intellectual Christian's" who believe in Evolution, but if they were at all intelligent they would realise that what I am saying as far as "never the twain shall meet", is the truth. They certainly have no intellectual understanding never mind spiritual understanding of the scripture. Given that any monkey knows that Genesis is not metaphorical or allegiorical in any way, the only orical it is, is Historical. Not many of us take Dawrins Origin of Species literally you know, and given that the idea of Evolution is from that book, well, wouldnt that make you all plagiarists or a sort? LOL.

Error indeed is never set forth in its naked deformity, lest, being thus exposed, it should at once be detected. But it is craftily decked out in an attractive dress, so as, by its outward form, to make it appear to the inexperienced…more true than the truth itself.

Irenaeus of Lyons

 

[micrurus]

I've promised to go since apparently I'm a troll for not believing in Evolution, but just remember this, Christianity is not theistic Evolution, and you're critisisng me for not believing it and yet you think you can get away with calling yourself a Christian. I don't care if you say there are many Christian's who aren't literalists or there are many Satanists or JW's or mormons or who aren't literalists or whatever else , you might say they/you are a Christan, but they and you aren't. I suppose you're one of these "I've got my fire insurance from JC "christians" are you, or dont you belive in that either?? You're not fooling anyone but yourself.

I suggest you change your religion to an agnostic evolutonist, (what you believe in does not equate with theism, unless your god is a cosmic snail, that is.) There is no place for what you believe and teach as far it pertains to the bible and bona fide Christianity which is a Biblical belief system. Ok mate, hopefully weve got that straight.

And to the poster who thinks "Christian's" dont get on well, or demontsrate very good christian behaviour between one another, or what ever else it is you think, well, again, belief in Evolution has no part with Christianity. Why you die hard "No God Evolustionists think it does is amusing. I suppose you'll take any fool you can get if they go along with the party line to some extent. Its probably even better if they make Christianity look bad while there at it.

hes not a cristion in your own made up definition of what a cristion is, luckily, you are not the one who gets to define what a cristion is.

look up the no true scotsman logical fallacy

 

[Gloone]

Does it occur to the participants here that 'something' happened...
to change the course of Man?

No, because a lot people that follow Darwin and evolution, try to ignore 6,000+ years of recent recorded history to get around religion and other things because they think anyone before Darwin’s time wasn’t smart and lived liked animals either in caves, tribes or in huts. I guess evolution was never intended to study actual human evolution, just animals. You can learn more about human evolution in Sociology and Psychology.

 

[outhouse]

That's an unfair statement.

I don't remember the guy's name....
but he got caught misrepresenting a skull he found.
There was some debate of his intention....
but his credibility was forever crashed.

Some scientist he was!

this is your lack of education bud, not a bad thing you just dont know the details.

your thinking of nebraska man

it was not the scientist that misrepresented anything, he made a statement as a possibility and had his doughts and the media ran and did drawings and stated what you percieve science stated.

even creation websites tell you to stay clear of this or youll get owned LOL

 

[outhouse]

Still denying Chapter Two of Genesis?

Does it occur to the participants here that 'something' happened...
to change the course of Man?

That believers say 'yeah'....with out proof ...doesn't mean they are wrong.

And the proof would be that rib...in the carcass of Eve.
Try finding that!

Or perhaps...someday...someone in the field of genetics
will find a way to determine the split of Man from the rest of the the animal world.
After all...Eve would be Adam's twin sister.
Maybe there's some hidden twist in our 'strands' that will show it?

Proof is something you can die waiting for.
That's why humans have faith.

again to think like this is a lack of education in the proper fields. If you dont know science and you dont know the bible yoy use "faith" the belief in something with 0 evidence.

you dont have a clue how well science knows evolution. It is fact as well as theory just like gravity. there is no debate at all among those with a education.

now you base belief from genesis, a fable written 3000 years ago by sheep herders LOL

They took a few different books after 300-500 years of storys being told around campfires before they were even merged. There are 5 different authors and moses didnt even get labeled as a author until roughly 500bC after the books had been out for hundreds of years.

Remember this is a jewish book and every jew i know will tell you its not ment to be read literally. they are more fables and it is mostly fiction

 

[Bereanz]

hes not a cristion in your own made up definition of what a cristion is, luckily, you are not the one who gets to define what a cristion is.

look up the no true scotsman logical fallacy

Luckily at least I know how to spell the word. The bible defines what a Christian is for all who care to read it, not re-interpret it into an unknown and unidentifiable language.

Calling yourself a Christian whilst epsousing a belief in the Docrtines of Evolution would be like calling yourself a man when in actual fact you're a woman. It's as simple as that.

 

[outhouse]

Luckily at least I know how to spell the word. The bible defines what a Christian is for all who care to read it, not re-interpret it into an unknown and unidentifiable language.

Calling yourself a Christian whilst epsousing a belief in the Docrtines of Evolution would be like calling yourself a man when in actual fact you're a woman. It's as simple as that.

you dont know how to read the bible and you have no credibility to give anyone advise.

genesis was written as ficticious fables and not ment to be taken literally.

it is a jewish book and should be read as such, not misinterpreted to fit christian needs

 

[tumbleweed41]

Luckily at least I know how to spell the word. The bible defines what a Christian is for all who care to read it, not re-interpret it into an unknown and unidentifiable language.

Calling yourself a Christian whilst epsousing a belief in the Docrtines of Evolution would be like calling yourself a man when in actual fact you're a woman. It's as simple as that.

Really? Where did Jesus advocate willful ignorance?



(And bragging on your spelling skills, then following up with the misspellings of espousing and Doctrines shows misplaced arrogance.)

 

[outhouse]

You good folks know.

there is nothing you can type

there are no pictures you can post

there are no diagrams

there is no evidence


there is nothing you can put here that will change this persons mind

they will not debate, they however, generally ignore, plagiarize and lie! at bes,t to protect a 3000 year old sheep herders manual

 

[Thief]

No, because a lot people that follow Darwin and evolution, try to ignore 6,000+ years of recent recorded history to get around religion and other things because they think anyone before Darwin’s time wasn’t smart and lived liked animals either in caves, tribes or in huts. I guess evolution was never intended to study actual human evolution, just animals. You can learn more about human evolution in Sociology and Psychology.

As if Man was never an animal?

 

[Thief]

you dont know how to read the bible and you have no credibility to give anyone advise.

genesis was written as ficticious fables and not ment to be taken literally.

it is a jewish book and should be read as such, not misinterpreted to fit christian needs

I'm not Jewish.
And Genesis works fine for me.
Thank you very much.

 

[dallas1125]

I'm not Jewish.
And Genesis works fine for me.
Thank you very much.

Doesnt mean that Genesis isnt a Jewish book.

 

[Dan4reason]

Walking apes appear today,

Really? Where? There may be apes that walk for short periods of time but none are actually built for it. Apes are knuckle walkers and their pelvises are simple not built for bipedal motion like the human pelvis is.

those pictures of a few bones dont prove evolution.

I already told you how they prove evolution.

Let me explain in more detail. We already know that for forces of evolution do work (i.e. microevolution and mutations).

Very early in the fossil record we just see ape-like creatures, no hominids. We then starts seeing hominids which have the capability to walk. Then we start seeing hominids with larger and larger brains going from Homo Habilis to Homo Erectus all the way to Homo Sapien Sapien.

Homo Habilis for example is short, has long arms compared to its body, and a small brain compared to humans, however its brain is 50% larger than that of a chimpanzee, has less of a protruding face, more enamel in its teeth etc.

Here is a Human skull.

here is a homo habilis skull.

Here is a chimpanzee skull.

 

[Thief]

Doesnt mean that Genesis isnt a Jewish book.

No....
my retort was directed elsewhere.....however....

Wisdom can be found in many places.
Is it not written?
'...wisdom is justified in all of her children...'

That Genesis is not a science report does not discredit the story.
(as if only a scientist could tell the truth?)

That Genesis was delivered and credit given to Moses....
discredits the report?

 

[idea]

I am a creationist, but I (and most Mormons) define the word "create" differently than most Christains...

from an old post )too lazy to write it all again)

So I think most agree with me that LDS do not believe in ex-Nihilo creation:

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 93:29)
Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

that "create" as used in the scriptures should be defined as - transform, mold, refine, purify, shape etc. etc. and not poof- make something out of nothing.

A few others agree...
example: http://www.ancient-h.../5_creator.html
"The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foriegn concept to the Hebrews."

another example: http://www.dailyglob...laims-academic/

For the oft asked question: "Why did God create evil?"

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.(Old Testament | Isaiah 45:7)

I always answer that God did not create evil, he transforms it - that 'bara' is better translated as transform, not create:

7 I form the light, and transform darkness: I make peace, and transform evil: I the LORD do all these things.(Old Testament | Isaiah 45:7)

That God is cleaning up a mess He did not create..... (our problems are not God's fault, we were not "created" imperfectly, as we were not created at all, so nothing bad can be blamed on God, because He did not create it)


Anyhoo, I was thinking about how the word create is prob not the greatest translation, and was thinking of the beginning chapts of Gen.


(Old Testament | Genesis 1:1)
1 IN the abeginning God transformed the heaven and the earth.

What it actually states is that God "transformed" what was already there...

in short, create does not mean "make something from nothing"
create = transform what eternally exists...

 

[outhouse]

I'm not Jewish.
And Genesis works fine for me.
Thank you very much.

because you translate it to meet your imaginational needs in my opinion.

That Genesis was delivered and credit given to Moses....
discredits the report?

it was not delivered, it was written by jews after they stole it from a previous religion with a different god/

im glad you admit being pagan now lOL

again all I ask is youu get a education in either the bible or science.

but to walk around quoting both blindy is beyond me.