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Featured "Creationist are Liars"...? When they Steamroll Darwinian Evolution

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by nPeace, Aug 31, 2018.

  1. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Creationist receives six-figure legal settlement from public university
    A creationist scholar recently received a six-figure settlement from California State University Northridge, a payout that resolved a 2-year-old lawsuit that alleged the scholar had been fired after discovering soft tissue on a triceratops horn and publishing his findings.

    The plaintiff, Mark Armitage, had alleged religious discrimination and a violation of the Fair Employment and Housing Act in his suit, claiming in court documents that after his discovery – which supports a young Earth theory – some professors went on a successful “witchhunt” against him.

    Armitage’s attorney, Alan Reinach, called the settlement “groundbreaking,” noting that in his decades practicing law he is unaware of any other favorable settlement of this nature on behalf of a creationist.

    ‘We are not going to tolerate your religion in this department!’

    Armitage, who has some 30 publications to his credit and is past-president of the Southern California Society for Microscopy, was hired by the university in early 2010 to manage a wide variety of oversight duties for the biology department’s array of state-of-the-art microscopes, court documents state. He also trained students on how to use the complicated equipment.

    In the summer of 2012, while at the world-famous dinosaur dig at Hell Creek Formation in Montana, Armitage discovered the largest triceratops horn ever unearthed at the site — complete with soft fiber and bone tissues that were stretchy.

    He published his findings, first in the November 2012 issue of American Laboratory magazine, which published images of the soft tissue on its cover, and then online in February 2013 in the peer-reviewed journal Acta Histochemica, according to court documents.

    The lawsuit contends that’s why Armitage’s employment at Cal State Northridge was terminated, with one professor allegedly storming into his office and shouting: “We are not going to tolerate your religion in this department!”

    Campus officials told Armitage his job was only a “temporary appointment,” and claimed a lack of funding for his position.

    ‘To have CSUN associated with the creation heresy — that was the capital offense’
    “When it became published and the university was associated with this,” Reinach said, referring to Armitage’s article reporting on the soft tissue, “that was intolerable.”

    “To have CSUN associated with the creation heresy — that was the capital offense,” Reinach said, noting Armitage was fired a few weeks after the article was published.

    He said the article had not gone into the implications of the discovery, only stated the findings. Reinach added the scholarly editors stood behind the publication of Armitage’s work. But it was still enough to rile up some professors at CSUN.

    Reinach is executive director of the Church State Council, a nonprofit California-based public interest legal organization dealing with religious freedom issues with a focus on religious discrimination and employment.
    In a telephone interview Monday with The College Fix, Reinach declined to state the exact amount of Armitage’s settlement, only that it was a six-figure dollar amount, “a substantial settlement representing about 15 times his annual part-time salary.”

    The university maintains Armitage was let go due to budgetary reasons, and that the public, Los Angeles-based university settled the case to avoid a costly, protracted legal battle.
    In an emailed statement to The College Fix, campus spokesperson Carmen Ramos Chandler said California State University Northridge is “firmly committed to upholding academic freedom, free speech and a respect for all religious beliefs.”

    As for the settlement, she stated: “The Superior Court did not rule on the merits of Mr. Armitage’s complaint, and this voluntary settlement is not an indication of any wrongdoing. The decision to not renew Mr. Armitage’s contract was based on budgetary considerations and a dwindling need for his services. The decision to settle was based on a desire to avoid the costs involved in a protracted legal battle, including manpower, time and state dollars.”

    ‘Vindication’
    In response, Reinach said “technically they are right, the judge did not rule, in the settlement agreement there is no admission of guilt, and they have rehashed their claim that he was fired for budgetary reasons.”
    dinasourSliderBut the attorney added that “in our view, they certainly would not have paid that kind of money if they did not recognize that we had them dead to rights. The state doesn’t put large, six-figure settlement money out unless they are really concerned they are going to lose.”

    “The evidence was quite clear,” the attorney continued. “The stated reasons for saying they fired him were simply not true. There were lies and contradictions abounding from several of the key witnesses.”
    One of the “smoking guns” was an email between campus officials suggesting they could ease Armitage out gracefully by making his part-time position full-time, Reinach said.
    “Not only did it not support the notion that there was budgetary concerns, but in fact suggested to the contrary,” he told The Fix.

    Reinach also pointed out that the settlement agreement was forged soon after Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Dalila Lyons issued in July a tentative ruling against the university’s request for summary judgment.
    In an email to The College Fix, Armitage referred to a YouTube video he created about the settlement, which he called “vindication.”

    He added he has been on two additional digs in Montana in recent years and “have found soft tissues at both of them.We are trying to get our papers published now. … I’m clearly being blackballed and that’s why I don’t want to give out too much information about our finds or the dinosaurs that we found them in.”

    The interview is quite interesting.


    Creationist Wins Lawsuit And Crushes Evolution.
     
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  2. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    What were Armitage's duties? Apparently he was a good microscopist. The article isn't clear on why he was fired.
    How did he explain how some 4,000 year old soft tissue found its way into rock dating 65-75 million years old?

    How does this "steamroll" evolution?
     
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  3. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    This is infantile squabbling between religionists and scientists. I don't care if someone is an Atheist or The Pope. Adults learn to hold different points of view without animosity.
     
  4. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Pretty much. And you illustrated that with a lying video. He did not "win his lawsuit". The university paid a nuisance to go away an amount that would cost less than the lawsuit.

    Can you find one honest creationist? Bring them up one at a time and I will show you why they are not honest. I have yet to see one single honest and informed creationist.
     
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  5. Kangaroo Feathers

    Kangaroo Feathers Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...

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    I came to see evolution being steamrolled... can't seem to find it
     
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  6. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    Some fundamentalist groups sort of brainwash their followers, to include some Muslim groups, and perhaps (?) certain Jewish sects. I once worked for a corporation that had their little mantras too. So, I'd suggest that they are not consciously lying but simply telling the truth they've memorized. I could relate some of my personal experiences, but perhaps not.
     
  7. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    A run-down of the incident, which is now two years old:


    "California State University at Northridge has settled a lawsuit brought by a former employee who said he was fired for sharing news of an archaeological discovery that supported his young-Earth creationist beliefs.

    The plaintiff, Mark Armitage, managed the Northridge biology department’s electron and confocal microscopy suite starting in 2010. In 2012, during a digging trip to Montana’s well-known Hell Creek Formation, he found a massive triceratops horn. Beyond its unusually large size, Armitage found something even more significant inside: soft tissue.

    While dinosaur soft tissue finds are not unprecedented, they are extremely rare because the tissue simply doesn’t preserve like the hard mineral parts -- think bones and teeth -- that make up most fossils. Other scientists have offered explanations for the preservation of soft tissue that fit within the scientific consensus on when the dinosaurs lived, tens of millions of years ago, namely the presence of iron. Yet for Armitage his discovery offered proof of his young-Earth creationist view.

    Because the tissue “looked alive” under a microscope and because no soft tissue had ever been found in a triceratops horn up until that point, he believed the find to be just 4,000 years old, according to the suit. While paleontologists find the timeline off in just about every way, that's the kind of analysis that appeals to those who take the Bible as a literal guide to world history.

    Armitage published his findings in 2013 in Acta Histochemica, a peer-reviewed journal, leaving out his interpretation of the tissue’s age. But he engaged students he was training in a Socratic dialogue about the possible age of the horn -- one of whom enthusiastically shared the conversation with a faculty member in the biology department, according to the suit. The professor allegedly entered Armitage's office and said, “We are not going to tolerate your religion in this department.”

    Armitage said he complained verbally of religious discrimination to two administrators, who told him to forget about it and never investigated.

    Two weeks after his article was published, and after Armitage allegedly was excluded from a secret meeting of a microscopy committee on which he served, Northridge fired Armitage. In the interim, a colleague told him he was the subject of a “witch hunt,” and suggested that he resign, according to the complaint.

    The university argued that it acted due to budgetary adjustments and a declining need for Armitage’s services; he was a part-time, temporary employee, it said.

    Armitage had written previously in support of creationism, including in a 2008 book called Jesus Is Like My Scanning Electron Microscope: (A Scientist Looks at His Relationship With the Creator), of which he said Northridge was aware when it hired him.

    Cal State Northridge said in an emailed statement that it is “firmly committed to upholding academic freedom, free speech and a respect for all religious beliefs.” The statement noted that the court did not rule on the merits of Armitage’s complaint, and that the settlement was voluntary and “not an indication of any wrongdoing.” The decision to not renew Armitage’s contract was based on “budgetary considerations and a dwindling need for his services,” the university said. Settling was about avoiding the costs associated with a "protracted legal battle, including manpower, time and state dollars.”

    source
    Please note the following:

    "Because the tissue “looked alive” under a microscope and because no soft tissue had ever been found in a triceratops horn up until that point, he believed the find to be just 4,000 years old, according to the suit. While paleontologists find the timeline off in just about every way, that's the kind of analysis that appeals to those who take the Bible as a literal guide to world history."
    "He believed the find to be just 4,000 years old" indicates there's insufficient evidence to claim it was just 4,000 years old. AND other scientists found there was no reason to suppose it was "just 4,000 years old." So, other than conforming to creationists' claim of a young earth, there was no reason to make the 4,000 year claim. Yet Armitage, armed with only his belief, engaged the students he was training in a Socratic dialogue about the possible age of the horn. And why pick 4,000 years instead of some other figure? because, as I say, it fits in with YE creationism. And why, after hearing what was going on in Armitage's class, would a "faculty member in the biology department enter Armitage's office and say “We are not going to tolerate your religion in this department” if Armitage wasn't trying to foist his YEC religious beliefs on his students?

    So while Armitage was indeed "fired after discovering soft tissue on a triceratops horn and publishing his findings" It wasn't because of it. It was because of budgetary considerations, he was no longer needed, and perhaps because he was proselytizing to his students---something not allowed in public schools.

    Moreover, I'm certain that after showing his religious bias in the interpretation of scientific evidence his objectivity credibility fell to zero,which is a death knell to anyone's employment in the science professions. My assessment of his lawsuit is that Armitage got ****** because no one wanted to associate with him after this religious assessment of the "tissue" and proselytizing to his students, so he decided to get back at them by suing Cal State Northridge---he obviously knew be just blew his scientific career.

    And looking back at the silly video in the OP, in no way did Armitage "crush evolution," which is just the kind of hyperbole we've come to expect from the creationist camp.

    BTW, thanks for posting this creationist c***, it's always a welcome diversion. :thumbsup:

    .
     
    #7 Skwim, Aug 31, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2018
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  8. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    That is why I included the qualifier "informed". Many creationists are almost totally unaware of the sciences. As a result they repeat the lies of those that do know what they are doing wrong. If one understands how science is done there is no way to support creationist beliefs. Of course all that evolution does is to prove that Genesis should not be read literally. Evolution does not "disprove God" as so many try to claim. It only refutes their flawed beliefs.

    What is amazing is that the creationists at forums are almost always afraid to learn how science is done and what is and what is not evidence. Even being told that it only refutes a literal Genesis does not allay their fears.
     
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  9. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Finding 4,000 year old triceratops tissue, in no way proves YEC. It only is evidence that the triceratops found, lived relatively recently. Even saying that though, is anathema to current scientific understanding....according to them, triceratops went extinct about 65 mya.

    But the evidence to the contrary, is there. (Like coelecanth, sorta).

    And more will be found.

    BTW, I'm pretty sure the OP is not a YEC.
     
  10. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    But they did not find "4,000 year old triceratops tissue". That was just an unsupported claim. In fact no dating at all was done on that tissue. Nor could any be reasonably done. And yes, we know that all of the non-avian dinosaurs went extinct roughly 65 million years ago. Have you ever thought of learning how we know that?

    By the way, you have no "evidence to the contrary". Only facts that you do not understand.
     
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  11. Regiomontanus

    Regiomontanus non est ad astra mollis e terris via

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    Hello. Yes, good question. I find it interesting that his findings were published in a legit, peer-reviewed journal:

    Acta Histochemica

    Peace
     
  12. Kangaroo Feathers

    Kangaroo Feathers Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...

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    Coelecanth is not evidence of triceratoprs
     
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  13. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen Veteran Member

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    Intellectual honesty and critical thought are pretty damn important. It's irresponsible and dangerous to pretend that all points of view are equally valid regardless of how rational or substantiated they actually are.
     
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  14. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Since I can't find an independent write up on that journal it is more likely an example of the glamour press. One guess, open source journal?
     
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  15. Regiomontanus

    Regiomontanus non est ad astra mollis e terris via

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    Hello. Nope; Elsevier is the real deal, they only publish 'real', peer-reviewed journals.

    Elsevier - Wikipedia

    Note I am not a creationist or supporting the claims of the person who published the research paper. I just found it interesting that the research in question was published in a legit journal. And from what the article in the OP stated, the author made no creationist claims in the published paper.

    Peace
     
    #15 Regiomontanus, Sep 1, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2018
  16. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Wrong. Much of Elsevier is open access. In those cases the writer of the article pays for others to read his work. That is the case with the journal Armitage published in:

    Open access options - Acta Histochemica - ISSN 0065-1281

    Quite a bit of Elsevier is the real deal, but not all of it.

    Edit: Though Elsevier does offer an open access option it does not appear to have been done in this case

    I do not see any creationist claims in the abstract.
     
    #16 Subduction Zone, Sep 1, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2018
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  17. Regiomontanus

    Regiomontanus non est ad astra mollis e terris via

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    Hello. Not quite. Open access is referring to how one pays for (or not)/ gains access to read the papers.

    One of the publishing options (open access), from their site:
    ----
    Here is how it works:

    Published articles are:

    Peer reviewed

    Immediately and permanently free for everyone to read and download

    Able to be reused in a number of different ways as defined by the user license

    Permanently preserved in our digital archives

    Have CrossMark® which links copies of the article to the final version of record to maintain the publication record

    ----


    Peace
     
  18. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    I know how open access works. It appears that you have no clue. But as you can see in my edit this was not an open access article. Is the journal ower ranked? No doubt about that. And of course there were no creationist claims in the article. That sort of lunacy would not get past peer review.
     
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  19. Regiomontanus

    Regiomontanus non est ad astra mollis e terris via

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    Hello. It looks like our posts keep jumping ahead of each other. :) That's right, it is peer-reviewed and can also be, depending on the licensing agreement, made availble to readers for free. And yep, no creationist claims made in the paper. That seems to argue in favor of the claim of the author.

    I have no skin in this game, was just making an observation.

    Peace
     
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  20. Regiomontanus

    Regiomontanus non est ad astra mollis e terris via

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    Hello. Yikes. No need to get nasty just because you made a mistake.

    Peace
     
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