The Anointed
Well-Known Member
Then why was your post #55, in response to my post #54?
Read post #59, to see that there is no contradiction between the two genealogies.
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Contradiction: Which geneaology of Jesus is correct?
- Thread starter SA Huguenot
- Start date
Then why was your post #55, in response to my post #54?
Read post #59, to see that there is no contradiction between the two genealogies.
Skwim
Veteran Member
Because, as I said, "Sorry, but I'm not that familiar with all the alternate spellings of the names on the list, so I'm not sure whom you're talking about."
I then added a "Moreover . . . ". because I thought the nature of the two lists had been ignored.
Yes, you said:
"The genealogy recorded in Matthew, is that of Joseph the son of Jacob a descendant in the genetic line of Solomon the son of David, who took the already pregnant Mary, as his betrothed and had no sexual contact with her until after she had given birth to Jesus, the first of her sons and daughters. Only then did Joseph the son of Jacob consummate their union and they became man and wife.
The genealogy recorded in Luke, is that of Joseph the son of Alexander Helios, shortened to 'HELI,' the biological father of Jesus, who was a descendant in the genetic line of Nathan the son of King David."
The genealogy recorded in Luke, is that of Joseph the son of Alexander Helios, shortened to 'HELI,' the biological father of Jesus, who was a descendant in the genetic line of Nathan the son of King David."
Secondly, were in the Bible are these two Josephs delineated and their involvement with Mary set forth?
Thirdly, considering that Luke 1:34, 35 says that Jesus was born of a virgin, how could Luke's Joseph be "the biological father of Jesus"?
Fourthly, and this concerns the list itself, is the extreme improbability that one lineage took only 26 generations to reach Jesus while the other lineage had to take half again as many, 40, generations. AND that the father and son of one genealogy have the exact names (Shealtiel and Zerubbabel) of another father and son of the other genealogy, and with both genealogies leading Jesus.
Nope, there are just to many improbables to support any conclusion other than some grave error was made in either one or both of the genealogies.
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Sp0ckrates
Member
It’s an evidence thing, handed down from Moses:
“You may say to yourselves, ‘How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?’ If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.”
(Deuteronomy 18:21-22)
Predictions spoken by Jewish prophets that come true are held to be evidence that they were true prophets who were quoting God, for many ancient Jewish people believed only God knows the distant future with 100% accuracy.
There were predictions made that the Jewish Messiah would come from the family lines of both Jesus’ biological mother and adopted father. Hence, Jewish people who became early Christians believed this to be evidence God’s predictions about the coming Messiah were regarding Jesus.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
No such prophecies about the messiah exist regarding his mother and any adoptive father. You must be reading a different Tanakh.
Sp0ckrates
Member
Are you Jewish? It’s so good to meet you! I enjoy reading the Tanakh, especially Psalms, and I’ve read from Genesis through Malachi more than once. But I have much to learn.
Please tell me: Do you believe there are any predictive prophecies within the text?
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Nice to meet you as well!!!
Trust me when I say that I argue in here only because it is a forum for disagreement. Iron sharpens iron. I feel it is a good way to help all parties grow. It is never, ever personal.
The truth is that for me, the essence of good religion is simply believing in God and living a virtuous life. Or as your own scriptures would say, "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." James 1:27
Christians, or at least devout Christians, follow through on that. Thus you guys are a-okay in my book, despite what I think are some strange beliefs.
Sp0ckrates
Member
I suppose Jesus’ brother was a good Jewish person, for he probably had these words of Moses in mind:
“For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the foreigner residing among you, giving them food and clothing. And you are to love those who are foreigners, for you yourselves were foreigners in Egypt.”
(Deuteronomy 10:17-19)
“For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the foreigner residing among you, giving them food and clothing. And you are to love those who are foreigners, for you yourselves were foreigners in Egypt.”
(Deuteronomy 10:17-19)
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
If, as you say, you have read the Tanakh, from Genesis through Malachi more than once. Can you please reveal the book, Chapter and verse, where you say that it is predicted that the Jewish Messiah would come from the family lines of both Jesus’ biological mother and adopted father?
I seem to have missed in in the fifty or sixty times that I have read the OT, in my 78 years on this earth.
Paul of Tarsus was smart in recommending that Christians avoid arguing about genealogies, nothing good will come of it for making the case for Jesus of Nazareth. Whichever genealogy one picks for Jesus he gets disqualified for being the moshiach. In the one genealogy he is descended through Nathan but the moshiach must be from Solomon. In the other he is descended from Jeconiah who can not be in the lineage of the moshiach.
And the bit about Jesus being an “adopted” son of David is flat out a non-starter. Tribal lineage and title inheritance can only be through physical descent, not through adoption. Period.
And the bit about Jesus being an “adopted” son of David is flat out a non-starter. Tribal lineage and title inheritance can only be through physical descent, not through adoption. Period.
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
Correct! Jesus was the biological son of Mary and her half-brother Joseph the son of Alexander Helios/ Heli, who was also the Father of Mary, through a different mother,
You will have noticed that in the genealogy of Joseph the son of Jacob, as recorded in Matthew, and Joseph the son of Heli, in Luke, Salathiel the father of Zerubbabel, are recorded in both Genealogies, this is because Narii, a descendant of Nathan the son of David, had married princess Tamar, a female descendant of King Solomon, who bore to Naria a son by the name “Salathiel.”
After the death of Naria, Tamar was taken to wife by King Jehoiachin, whose only son with Tamar, was Zedekiah had died prematurely in Childhood, and Salathiel was the adopted son, and not of the seed of Jehoiachin. .
David Hughes the noted Genealogist of the Ancient World Lineages, states that King Jeconiah’s only son, with Queen Tamar, ‘Prince Zedekiah,’ died prematurely in childhood, and in 586 BCE King Zedekiah, the last king of Israel, whose original name Mattaniah, was the son of Josiah and the uncle of Jehoiachin. King Zedekiah/Mattaniah, was taken prisoner and his sons were executed in front of him, after which, his eyes were gouged out, and there in Babylon, he remained blinded in exile for the rest of his life and it appeared that the entire royal lineage of King David through God’s chosen son, Solomon, had been exterminated.
With all the known direct lineages of male heirs to the lineage of King Solomon the son of King David and Bathsheba now extinct, Queen Tamar II became the dynastic heiress preserving not only the Lineage of King Solomon, but also became the inter-dynastic link, or the vital crossover heiress merging the non-royal Nathan lineage with the royal lineages of King Solomon. With the addition of Tamar representing the mainline descendants of King David, we now can understand the linkage between the two prime royal and non-royal lineages to the ancestry of the Jewish Messiah Yehoshua ben Yosef (Jesus son of Joseph the son of Alexander Helios a descendant of Nathan).
Jesus carried in his genes the potent fusion of Davidian and Zadokian bloodlines. He carried the potent bloodline of the royal mantle as a Priest-King of Israel and the messianic mantle as the Maschiach Yisra’el (Messiah of Israel) of the House of David.
I hope this is of some help to you.
Mark La Buda
Member
The linage of Christ can seem to be contradictory. Although Joseph’s linage is from David, Matthew’s account is not a true “blood line” because Jesus did not have a biological father. However, his step-father was also from the linage of David. In Luke’s account, Joseph is identified as the son of Heli-although being Mary’s father. According to Jewish custom, daughters were not identified in genealogical records. Joseph is identified because of his marriage to Mary. This was important for inheritance rights under Jewish customs.
Most important, Luke identified Nathan (David’s son) in Mary’s linage-1 Chronicles 3:5 In other words, the “blood line” was through Mary.
Most important, Luke identified Nathan (David’s son) in Mary’s linage-1 Chronicles 3:5 In other words, the “blood line” was through Mary.
Mitty
Active Member
So what evidence do you have that Jesus was conceived by parthenogenesis and didn't have a Y chromosome? And if so, is that why Jesus loved a particular disciple instead of a wife?
Luke 1, however, says that Jesus' biological father was probably Heli's son who was coincidently also named Joseph, as was his adoptive father. But since maternity is a matter of fact and paternity is just a matter of opinion without reliable paternity tests, then Jesus' biological father could have been a Roman centurion as some claim, or the milkman.
And besides, Jesus' maternal grandparents were Joachime and Anne anyway.
Joachim - Wikipedia
But either way, it wasn't the almighty that lifted Mary's nightie.
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Mitty
Active Member
Do you have any evidence to support your claim that Mary had a sexual relationship with her brother and that Jesus' biological parents were siblings?
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The Anointed
Well-Known Member
From “The Ancestors of Jesus in First and Second Century Judea BCE”
By Robert Mock M.D.
December 2007.
Book One
Chapter Two we learn that this young maiden, Miriam, was a child of sorrow. Her father, Heli, a Davidic and Hasmonean prince, called Alexander Helios III, was apparently executed, in the world where many Davidian aspirants, as the “young lions of Judah”, were eliminated by the cruel and tyrannical King Herod the Great., Etc.
A son of the famous Boethus family of seven sons, Mary’s great-great-great grandfather, arrived into Jewish history as one of the giants of the priests of the House of Zadok. The High Priest Hananeel (Ananelus) the Egyptian/Jew was privileged to sacrifice one of the nine red heifers before the temple of Herod was destroyed in 70 AD.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The great grandfather of the biblical Jesus was Yehoshua/Jesus III, who was the high priest in Jerusalem from 36 to 23 BC and is believed to have been murdered at the orders of Herod the Great. The sonless Yehoshua, had three daughters, Joanna, Elizabeth and Anna/Hanna, whose mother was from the tribe of Asher.
Knowing that his Zadokian lineage would become extinct unless his daughters were placed with future husbands according to the Torah, he married them off to chosen husbands.
Joanna, was betrothed to Joachim from the non-royal genetic lineage of David. The second daughter of Yehoshua III, was Elizabeth. This was the Elizabeth, who, at a very advanced age was to become the mother of John the Baptist in 7 BC, a year before the birth of Jesus and some 16 years after the death of her father ‘Yehoshua/Jesus III,’ in 23 BC, and she was betrothed to a Levite priest by the name Zacharias of the priestly course of Abijah.
The young Davidian prince Heli, [Alexander Helios III] the son (Or adopted son) of Mattathias ben Levi, was chosen by Yehoshua/Jesus III the high priest in Jerusalem, as the candidate to marry his daughter Hanna/Anna.
The Talmud states, "Whoever brings up an orphan in his home is regarded..as though the child had been born to him." (Sanhedrin 119b).” In other words, the adopted child is to be treated as a child born to the father of that house,
There are two men from around this period, who were named ‘Alexander Helios III’, one was the son of Cleopatra and Mark Anthony, who was adopted out after the suicidal deaths of his parents, with absolutely no historical evidence of what may have happened to him, the other, was the son (Or adopted son) of Mattathias=Mattat and his wife Esther of Jerusalem, or Queen Alexandra II, a close friend of Cleopatra the Queen of Egypt.
Alexandra was to become the mother (Or step-mother) of Heli ben Mattat or Prince Alexander Helios III. who became the father of Mary the mother of Jesus.
Esther of Jerusalem can be identified as the future Maccabee Queen known by her Greek name as Queen Alexandra II, who was the great grandmother of Yeshua (Jesus). This subject will be more fully discussed at a latter date.
Hanna/Anna, the third daughter, was betrothed to Alexander Helios III (Heli) a young Macedonian Jew, of the tribe of Judah through Nathan the son of Bathsheba and Uriah the Hittite who became the stepson of King David. and the half brother to Solomon, after the king had Uriah killed.
Luke 3:23; (KJV) And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli. The (AS WAS SUPPOSED) in brackets, was a later interpolation by those who would have you believe the false teaching of the so-called virgin birth.
In the different translations of the KJV into Arabic, Afrikaan, Zulu, etc and even some of the more modern English translations, such as the Good News Catholic Study Edition Bible, the words (As was supposed) have been retained, but the brackets are removed, thus by, making those words appear to be the declaration of Luke, while the serious biblical student know that they were not written by Luke, but were a later interpolation and a corruption of the Holy Scriptures, by those Christians, who refuse to accept that Jesus was not a God who became a man, but a man, born of human parents, who was later CHOSEN by the Lord our saviour ‘The Son of Man,’ as his heir and successor.
If Jesus was not born of the flesh as all human beings are, but was born of a virgin without male semen having been introduced into her uterus, then this would have been the greatest of all miracles, and would have been shouted from the roof tops by all four gospel writers and yet we see that Mark (Who is believed to be the son of Peter) and John the beloved disciple, ignore the physical birth of Jesus as being totally irrelevant to the story of salvation, and begin their account of He who was sent in the name of the Lord, with the Baptism of the man Jesus, when he was born of the spirit that descended upon him in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say, “You are my son, Today I have begotten thee.”
This verse; Luke 3:22; which now reads; “Thou art my beloved son in whom I am pleased,” was also changed by those who want you to believe that Jesus was not born of the flesh by two human parents and Later, on the day of his baptism, born of the spirit of our Lord God and saviour, ‘The Son of MAN’ and the MOST HIGH in the creation, when the spirit of our Lord descended upon him in the form of a dove
In Luke 3: 22; (In place of “Thou art my beloved son in who I am well pleased.”) The following authorities of the second, third, and fourth centuries read, “This day I have begotten thee,” vouched for by Codex D, and the most ancient copies of the old latin (a, b. c. ff.I), by Justin Martyr (AD 140), Clemens Alex, (AD. 190), Methodius (AD. 290), among the Greeks. And among the Latins, Lactaitius (AD 300), Hilary (AD) Juvencus (AD. 330), Faustus (AD. 400) and Augustine. All these oldest manuscripts were changed completely. They now read, “This is my son in whom I am well pleased.” Whereas the original variant was, “Thou art my Son. This day I have begotten thee.”
Jesus was born 'SON of God' not by blood, nor by the will of the flesh, nor by the will of man, but by the spirit of our Lord God and savior, which descended upon him on the day he was ba[tised and the heavenly voice was heard to say; "You are my son, this day I have begotten thee," or as said in Hebrews 5:5; "You are my son, TODAY I have become your Father."
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Mitty
Active Member
And David was his god's begotten son (Psalm 2:7), even though David was an adulterous murderer who said that his love with Jonathon was more wonderful than with any of his wives and concubines (2Sam 1:26). Which is why the authors of John 3:16 etc plagiarised Psalm 2:7 to link Jesus to David.
The term "son of god" simply means that the person is a true believer (John 1:12 Rom 8:14 2Cor 6:18 Heb 12:5 Luke 3:38).
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The Anointed
Well-Known Member
And who do you think 'THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD IS?' John 3: 16; For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Mitty
Active Member
Obviously David was the only begotten son given he was also a Jewish king (Psalm 2:6-7) even though he was an adulterous murderer.
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
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The Anointed
Well-Known Member
Acts 2: 29-35; “My fellow-Israelites, I must speak to you plainly about our famous ancestor King David. He died and was buried, and his grave is here with us to this very day. He was a prophet, and he knew what God had promised him: God had made a vow that he would make one of David's descendants a king, just as David was. David saw what God was going to do in the future, and so he spoke about the resurrection of the Messiah when he said: ‘He was not abandoned in the world of the dead; his body did not rot in the grave.’
God has raised this very Jesus from death, and we are all witnesses to this fact. He has been raised to the right-hand side of God, his Father, and has received from him the Holy Spirit, as he had promised. What you now see and hear is his gift that he has poured out on us. For it was not David who went up into heaven; rather he said: The Lord said to my Lord: Sit here at my right until I put your enemies as a footstool under your feet.’
I am 78, and married to the one woman for 56 years, and live in far northern Queensland, what state do you live in Mitty, and how are you coping with the virus?
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Mitty
Active Member
That's just an imaginative fantasy and doesn't change the fact that Psalm 2:7 says that David was his god's begotten son, even though David never went to heaven, nor did Abraham or Moses or Noah etc (John 3:13). And where does David say "he was not abandoned in the world of the dead; his body did not rot in the grave", or did the writers of Acts 2:31 just make that up?
We live in Northern Victoria so it's not an issue for us.
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rational experiences
Veteran Member
Science of God O planet Earth and its Noble gases is a male human owned thesis for his design machine to copy what he believes was a ground reaction.
Fission on Earth.
Yet in previous visionary information the Earth was stopped owning SINK HOLES which is not UFO ground fission ORIGINS. It flat topped mountains and stopped due to water line stopping the reaction.
Total male science occult research in a VISION....SION...he was not in the VISION originally. Instead he caused ground fission and put our life into vision, by removal of our bio organic ground water mass, our oxygen and our microbes, burnt them carbonisation, and then an image appeared in new more amassing cloud presence, for cloud mass increased.
Science today owning that male group memory says natural cloud mass...then extra cloud mass....yes I can remove that extra cloud mass for my machine...as the lying psyche they own, possessed by science and lying using term word EXTRA.
As if God has something extra than to give him so he can claim he is not changing anything as the liar he is.
God is cold radiation spatially held frozen and fused in cold radiation space.
So if he says he wants cold radiation for science, he heats up God mass, destroys it and then we all die attacked in radiation gas burning spatial attack on our heavenly gases/spirits.
Volcano....comparison, God gained an erection says a lying occult male, who does and always had in occult sciences included his sexuality, including a n a l intercourse claiming that sex with his brother gave him the power of God....male reasoning, I irradiated self, changed my sexual responses and the irradiation caused by a God reaction attacked me. TO BE INFORMED...information exists first in the natural causes.
So he said volcano ejected its spirit into the cold empty spatial womb. First natural body, cold space. Space then heated irradiated by volcanic God ejection...Immaculate spirit evolved by space cooling it, changed the volcanic gases with water.
The movement of the spirit of GOD O the stone he said was gases moving on the face of water in the great deep of space....Immaculate relativity.
Space the womb....is not Mother Mary.
The meaning magdalia is a crumb, and the crumb was involved in a particle chemical nuclear reaction, the reason that life had been sacrificed a long time before.
It was DATA inferred to science as science for an on behalf of the sciences.
So JESUS is just also DATA and does not rationally belong to any human GENETIC family, for in rational human advice, only bio organic living human bodies own DNA/Genesis of their owned description.
Historic science information said that from Moses, the Earth atmospheric mass after the ground fission nuclear attack that had combusted our life back to ashes...and the mountains became dust/desert......human DNA was given back to the ovah....the ovary by the Immaculate heavenly re emerging natural Noble gases...the colours of multi gases. Earth mantle the Heavenly body.
A male as a human is in fact a liar, a greedy human as an elitist rich history that says the reason any human today is rich is only due to all the human suffering on Earth ever suffered. And you got rich by ill gotten gains, rationally.
You did not own O God the Earth as a planet. Nor did you own the reason that the gas spirits naturally existed. You did however in a male group mentality lie, cheat and coerce and took over control of human life on Earth, just as we all know, were taught, why poor humans hated rich humans, and today lying again, claiming oh yes we all know we are wrong, are in fact doing nothing about it.
Worrying about control, being the one, the greatest, the greediest, the controller of everything factually against each other's owned holy land DNA humanity claiming self is greater by themes of the science male caused occult history.
As the human fact of it.
Life on every national ground landing and every animal and nature and also the God Earth was attacked by human occult machine caused UFO sciences, rationally. We all shared the life sacrificed and today, no human is owner of life perfection...for we should not age, we should not be sick in any forms of any sickness and we should all be beautiful to look at.
Fact of human reality as a realist, is to believe in it and not in egotism about being "special".
JESUS was a DATA titled scientific genetic advice and given a TITLE for inference to a timed even in history and recorded for scientific proof and documentation in the biological sciences against occult nuclear scientists of cosmological themes...when God O the Earth is a spatial filled in heavenly mass as compared to any other body....so we said it was the highest.