Conflicting Gods

[EyeofOdin]

Some people hold the belief that if you were to call upon deities of different or conflicting cultures or deities who have been portrayed as being unfriendly to each other (such as Seth and Horus or invoking a Heathen Rokkr and a member of the Aesir).

There are many ideas I can accept about God or Gods, however I cannot accept that a God is less than me. It is in their nature to be greater than living beings.

I have had to work with people of different cultures, some of which I didn't like, such as I had to work with fundamentalist Christians but we set aside our differences to achieve a result. There were and are also people whom I didn't like and I had HUGE personality conflicts with, but I still worked with them to achieve the desired result. If I can do this, how can a god not?

 

[Quintessence]

I'm not sure if the claim is that gods from disparate pantheons can't get along with each other so much as avoiding the naive expectation that they will get along with each other. It's pretty standard in Pagan pantheons for there to be many types of relationships among the gods, and adversarial or conflicting ones are included in that list.

 

[Jainarayan]

Personally I don't think it's unreasonable that part of the seeming conflicts represent moods or facets of a god's or goddess's personality. I have my conflicting moods. I don't know if that makes sense, but maybe it's because I'm a universalist.

 

[Benst]

In ancient times around the Medditteranean, it was a common belief that Gods could be wooed away from your enemy to become one of your Gods. That is why Egyptians have so many foreign deities from Canaan.

If we look at Greek mythology, there are times when the Gods don't get on at all...and other times they come together again. The Trojan war is a good example of this.

I think we have to be careful when viewing Gods in Human terms. They're Gods... they will do whatever they want and they don't have to get along for our purposes. The God works with you, not each other... in worship or magic or personal devotion. But then I wonder what you are getting out of worshipping supposed enemies, take Seth and Horus for example? What would both of these represent, and in a way, are they as a duo more powerful because of their backstory than as individuals apart.

 

[EyeofOdin]

In ancient times around the Medditteranean, it was a common belief that Gods could be wooed away from your enemy to become one of your Gods. That is why Egyptians have so many foreign deities from Canaan.

If we look at Greek mythology, there are times when the Gods don't get on at all...and other times they come together again. The Trojan war is a good example of this.

I think we have to be careful when viewing Gods in Human terms. They're Gods... they will do whatever they want and they don't have to get along for our purposes. The God works with you, not each other... in worship or magic or personal devotion. But then I wonder what you are getting out of worshipping supposed enemies, take Seth and Horus for example? What would both of these represent, and in a way, are they as a duo more powerful because of their backstory than as individuals apart.

Well Horus and Seth weren't always enemies. At some points they were allies and considered the protectors of the pharos, other times they representing a warring dualism. So they very may well be allies now, just as how The United States and Japan during WWII weren't really friendly with each other, but now they're not hostile at all.

Or take Nordic mythology. The Vanir and Aesir blatantly were very very hostile in the beginning, but now they're allies and are arguably one tribe.

I do agree with you that we need to not think of the gods in human terms. Something common amongst humans is getting too into a feud or spat where they can't even be in the same space with each other, but there are humans who can set aside these differences to achieve that result. How can gods not do this but humans can? If gods were like humans, this would 9 times out of ten never work. But we know from UPG that this isn't the case.

 

[EyeofOdin]

I'm not sure if the claim is that gods from disparate pantheons can't get along with each other so much as avoiding the naive expectation that they will get along with each other. It's pretty standard in Pagan pantheons for there to be many types of relationships among the gods, and adversarial or conflicting ones are included in that list.

Why wouldn't they? Some people don't, but others get along with other people from other cultures to achieve a result. If we can set aside cultural differences, why can't gods?

I also hear a lot that Celtic deities and Germanic deities can't possibly work together because their tribes were always at war. Well, today those tribes aren't there anymore, and these countries now aren't at odds with each other. You'd think the gods would notice this.

 

[Quintessence]

Why wouldn't they? Some people don't, but others get along with other people from other cultures to achieve a result. If we can set aside cultural differences, why can't gods?

I'm not saying that they can't. I'm saying that it is naive to suppose that relationships amongst various gods are always going to be peaceable. This isn't evidenced within pantheons, and to me it makes no sense to suppose it would be any different across them.

In my experience, "getting along" isn't really in the vocabulary of most gods I honor anyway. They do what they do, and the relationships they have with various other aspects are an expression of their nature. A Storm Spirt that blasts through town does not care if it "gets along" with other Spirits; it just does what it does. It's something of an anthropomorphism to say the Storm Spirit doesn't "get along" with the Tree Spirits it topples over from wind and rain or shatters with lightning. I feel it is important to recognize that.

I also hear a lot that Celtic deities and Germanic deities can't possibly work together because their tribes were always at war. Well, today those tribes aren't there anymore, and these countries now aren't at odds with each other. You'd think the gods would notice this.

I'm not really in a place to speak to that. The vast majority of gods I honor are what others would call "nature spirits." What interactions I've had with historical Pagan pantheons is limited to Hellenic, and I've gotten no impressions one way or another with respect to how they play with other cultural pantheons. Well, I have some, but in the end, it's personal gnosis and has no bearing on anybody's path except my own.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

I think you have to take myths with a pinch of salt. They're stories. Some make a serious point, others are just folktales. In practice, so-called opposing gods were often worshiped by the same people. In Roman times, the temple at Dendara had major festivals for both Isis and Set.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Some people hold the belief that if you were to call upon deities of different or conflicting cultures or deities who have been portrayed as being unfriendly to each other (such as Seth and Horus or invoking a Heathen Rokkr and a member of the Aesir).

There are many ideas I can accept about God or Gods, however I cannot accept that a God is less than me. It is in their nature to be greater than living beings.

I have had to work with people of different cultures, some of which I didn't like, such as I had to work with fundamentalist Christians but we set aside our differences to achieve a result. There were and are also people whom I didn't like and I had HUGE personality conflicts with, but I still worked with them to achieve the desired result. If I can do this, how can a god not?

Personally, I don't see god(s) or pantheons, I just see/experience spirits. Just like biologic creatures (who are just other spirits after all), there are some that live in ways that can harm humans, some that can help humans, and the vast majority are indifferent. Since I suspect that the things most people are calling god(s) are the really big/powerful spirits I sometimes perceive but are either at the limit of or are beyond my comprehension, I'm suspecting that some will help, some will hinder, and the vast majority are completely indifferent about humans and don't interact with us much. On the same basis, I suspect they interact in much the same way, too.

 

[EyeofOdin]

Personally, I don't see god(s) or pantheons, I just see/experience spirits. Just like biologic creatures (who are just other spirits after all), there are some that live in ways that can harm humans, some that can help humans, and the vast majority are indifferent. Since I suspect that the things most people are calling god(s) are the really big/powerful spirits I sometimes perceive but are either at the limit of or are beyond my comprehension, I'm suspecting that some will help, some will hinder, and the vast majority are completely indifferent about humans and don't interact with us much. On the same basis, I suspect they interact in much the same way, too.

I somewhat agree. I feel that the lines between "deity" and "spirit" or "ancestor" is fairly blurred because if you look at the lore of most indigenous, polytheistic spiritual systems, the gods are the creators of humanity, so the gods are our ancestors. Also, in most ancestral and animistic traditions, ancestors and nature spirits are treated as minor deities.

 

[Planets and the Sun]

Within the same pantheon, I think it depends on why they don't get along or why you think they don't. Myths are meant to illustrate something. Sometimes this is that the two forces of the deities you're calling upon just don't mix well, sometimes it's something else and the rivalry between deities is merely a plot point. Personally, I don't think that deities are petty enough to have rivalries like that, but in some cases they're just not much of a point in worshipping at the same time and you can always just worship them separately.

Between different pantheons, I would say it depends on your personal beliefs. Once again, I don't believe deities are petty enough to be bothered by you believing and worshipping deities from different pantheons but it's sort of pointless to mix in the worship of two deities with similar domains (or contradictory ones for that matter) from entirely different pantheons at the same time. This doesn't mean you can't worship them separately but put it like this. You have a French friend and a German friend. They only speak their own languages and you speak both of them as well. Are you going to speak only French, and thus exclude your German friend, or are you going to speak only German and thus exclude your French friend from the conversation? In that scenario you'd probably think it would be best to hang out with them separately so you could fully communicate with them without leaving out the other.

Likewise, different cultures had/have different ways of worshipping and it just sounds like a good idea to worship accordingly when worshipping a deity from that culture.

Worshipping two deities with similar domains in one go would be like calling two electricians to your house at the same time.

But I know Pagans who see all Gods as being the same, for example, so it just depends on your personal beliefs.

To sum up mine, I don't think that deities are that petty, but I think there are practical issues worth keeping in mind that probably explain that idea.

 

[Riverwolf]

Sometimes the "conflict" is just one interpretation, with another equally valid one being no conflict.

Loki is Odin's Blood Brother. For me, Loki is not the evil being he's portrayed as in later lore, but an honored, if troublesome, member of the Aesir. When I say "asaheil" (blessings of the Aesir), I include Loki.

On the other hand, when dealing with the Elves... then things can get a wee bit trickier. The Gods may not be petty, but the Elves... they're kind of the embodiment of pettiness.

 

[Jainarayan]

I know this thread is 4 months and 1 day old, but as I'm learning things, I see subjects I can learn more from by bouncing ideas off them.

I also don't believe "my God can beat up your God". I like the saying "God(dess) shows [him- her- it-]self in a way meaningful to the believer", i.e. "everyone sees God(dess) in their own way. To that end, my Gods are just as valid as that person's Gods, and vice-versa.

However, I'm of two minds about enshrining certain deities together in the same shrine. For example, I have a picture of Heimdall in my shrine, but I have a picture of Loki elsewhere in the house. I've come to learn that Loki is a very complex character who brings a sort of balance, or brings out the "flavors" and intensifies the personalities of the other Gods. Therefore he is as worthy of veneration as any other deity. But Loki and Heimdall detest each other and will kill each other at Ragnarok, therefore I think it would not be such a good idea, possibly even disrespectful to enshrine them together.

The second part is that certain deities are worshiped, venerated, and made offerings to in different ways. My biggest conflict right now is incorporating certain Hindu deities into my practice. I don't identify as Hindu, I don't practice as a Hindu, I don't hold with 90% of Hindu beliefs, but I still have an affinity for certain Hindu Gods: Lakshmi, Saraswati, Hanuman, Shiva (as Nataraja). Strangely, and departing from 99.99989% of Hindu views, I have never gotten close to Ganesha or Krishna, despite them being two of the most popular deities. Though I'm sure they love me anyway.

I tried to enshrine the Aesir and Hindu Gods together, but it didn't feel right. The Aesir can be offered alcohol and meat (though I don't think it's a requirement); but that is an effront to the Hindu deities. Moreover, the disposition of the offerings are different for the two pantheons. So for now I keep the Hindu deities separately enshrined. And, while I may think of them, I find myself not praying or offering to them. They are kind of just there. Of course this could just be a matter of not cutting ties fully. After all, Frigga is the All-Mother, Thor is my strength and protector. On the other hand, I can probably use all the help I can get. The point is, I think it's OK to believe in, and venerate and worship deities from disparate pantheons, but one has to know their respective tastes. For example, at a holiday dinner at my house, if one or some of my guests were recovering alcoholics, I would not keep bottles of wine or liquor on the table, but rather, in the kitchen., If someone wanted it, they could go serve themselves. You have to be aware of people's (deities') sensibilities.

Of course, anyone should feel free to point out shortcomings in my thinking, and offer other views.