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Comparison of Christianity and Judaism

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by sojourner, Aug 6, 2014.

  1. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Here's a question aimed specifically at Levite, Jewscout, Jayhawker, etc. -- The Jewish members -- although other opinions are welcome, as well.

    I posed this question in another thread, but thought it might merit enough discussion such that a distinct thread is more advisable:

    Do you think that today's Judaism (and I *think* I'm talking more about, say reform Judaism more than, say Hassidic or even orthodox, but I'm really not too clear on the distinctions) is "closer" to what Jesus would have had in mind with his movement than is today's apostolic Christianity (RCC, Orthodox, Anglican)?

    Thanks!
     
  2. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    I don't think so.

    Some of the scripture was identical, but how they worshipped in Galilee is not known.


    Little is known for Zealots practices.
     
  3. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    I mean, who knows. :shrug:

    In what I know about what Jesus taught, or at least what is attributed him in the Christian Gospel, I feel like he would fit in at even a Modern Orthodox setting.

    (aside from the whole "I am the truth, the way and the life" thing, that's a little of the derech);)

    but I could be totally wrong, Judaism was so fragmented at that time, who knows if those Jews would recognize any kind of Jewish service today.
     
  4. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    Yep.

    Sort of my point.


    I see a Hellenistic division, a methodology of study that was popular a long time ago and ditched in favor of a Hellenistic permeated view

    They say we should not try and run Hellenism out of Judaism, but I bet there were pious born and raised Jews where Hellenism had not sunk it and was not widely accepted.


    I bet the Judaism in Sepphoris for example, was not the Judaism of Nazareth.
     
  5. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Derech?

    It really looks like, from the gospels, that Jesus is more about reform of the Law, at least in the way it's put into practice, than he is about completely changing the spiritual paradigm. His prophecy of the cross is akin to the practice of the sacrificial lamb.

    I guess this is where I'm coming from:

    Your suggestion that the whole Christ-as-God is idolatry is being paired in my mind with this scenario: During the Reformation, John Wesley tried to reform the Anglican Church, and just ended up spinning a new denomination that, today, is nothing like Anglicanism. Today's Anglicanism is actually a lot closer to what Wesley had in mind.

    I just wondered if you all thought that Jesus' reforming movement actually went way too far following his death, and that Judaism sort of "self-reformed" along the same lines as what Jesus may have had in mind, such that modern Judaism is closer to what he expected.
     
  6. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    I think you are pretending to know too much about Jesus.
     
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  7. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Just going by what is known of him in the gospels. Admittedly, it's not much, but it's all we've got. And I'm not trying to "prove that Christianity is really Judaism at its finest." It's really just a thought I had, and it's a somewhat intellectual exercise in conjecture. Just wondered what the "Jewish authorities" thought about it.
     
  8. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    Which is possibly the opposite of his theology.


    His enemies wrote it.


    He fought against the Hellenistic corruption in the temple. he would have opposed those Hellenist who ran Sepphoris, and kept Peasants and Zealots oppressed.

    And these are the type of people the authors were.
     
  9. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Neither Mark nor Matthew fall into that category. But John and Luke do...
     
  10. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    sorry, it means "way"

    well I thought that even Jesus said that he didn't come to change even one iota of the law?

    also many Christians get hung up on the whole sacrifices thing. They weren't just there for cleansing of sin. Unless we say that the crucifixion serves as all forms of sacrifice to G-d.....which is just really confusing to me and makes my head hurt

    no I don't think so, because the liberal forms of Judaism (Reform and conservative) were birthed in a totally different time for different reasons and as time has gone on they have changed, even from their own inception. I don't know that Jesus would recognize a Reform Temple as the kind of Judaism he was trying to teach.

    then again, he may feel the same way about my Orthodox shul (Yiddish for synagogue)

    unlike Chris Rock, he doesn't own me 12 bucks
     
  11. Levite

    Levite Higher and Higher

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    The thing is, Jesus seems to have been crafting his own vision of Judaism. He seems pretty clearly to have been trained as a Pharisee, but his theology and practice-- if we can even trust the synoptic gospels, which of all the Christian scripture seem likeliest to bear some vague resemblance to something Jesus might actually have taught or done-- have borrowed heavily from ascetic and perhaps apocalyptic sources like the Essene-type communities, and perhaps even from Greek philosophy a little, as well as containing his own innovations and ideas. So his Judaism that he practiced and taught in his day, if we can guess anything about it from Christian scripture and the few brief stories about Jesus as a renegade student that exist in the Talmud, would not really have resembled Rabbinic Judaism or even necessarily any of the major Jewish sects of his day.

    But I think it is safe to say that at heart, it would resemble Rabbinic Judaism-- which encompasses all the major Jewish movements today, and all of mainstream Judaism for the past 1500+ years-- more than it would mainstream Christianity.

    While I can easily believe that Jesus might have proclaimed himself the messiah-- tons of guys were running around Israel in those days proclaiming themselves the messiah, it was entirely commonplace-- I find it entirely unlikely that he proclaimed himself either the literal son of God (an idea wholly foreign to Judaism, even to the chaotic mess of sects that embodied Judaism in Jesus' time) or God Himself-- an idea utterly at variance with Judaism to the core. Trinitarianism would have been wholly foreign and at odds with everything Jewish that Jesus would have known, to say nothing of spreading the religion to non-Jews without benefit of even the most basic tokens of conversion, or nullifying the vast majority of the commandments.

    If somehow Jesus were to be brought back to life today, I think everything-- Judaism and Christianity-- would look strange and foreign to him. But ultimately, I think he could come to recognize something familiar in Judaism. Christianity? I don't think so. I think once he understood it, he would feel empathy and compassion for the legitimate desires of Christians to live holy lives and reach out for God, and he would be touched that they remembered even a faint and distorted record of his teaching. But I don't think he would approve of being worshipped, nor would he understand, I think, how all these non-Jews could believe that what they were doing had much to do with the religion of the Jewish People.
     
  12. xkatz

    xkatz Well-Known Member

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    If we are talking strictly about reform Judaism (and I mean URJ temple type stuff), then I would say no. Mainly b/c while I think Jesus was in some ways a radical, he and his early followers alike don't strike me as ultra-progressive modernists.
     
  13. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    Mark and Matthew definitely does.

    He was writing to and for a Roman audience.


    Matthew, while holding on to more Hellenistic Jewish values, still was divorcing Judaism, and using marks appeal to the roman population.


    Matthews community however it started, at the time of compilation, was a Community of Hellenistic Proselytes to Judaism, that wanted again, to divorce Judaism.


    Jesus as far as we know, never wanted to divorce Judaism. Galilean Zealots were known to be pious Jews.
     
  14. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    Im just the opposite.


    I think the Hellenistic Proselytes who had long wanted to divorce Judaism, did so and found importance in the Martyrdom of the man after his death.

    Jesus did not create Christianity, the followers did, who were Hellenistic Proselytes and gentiles.


    The only crafting that was done, was done by Hellenist.
     
  15. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    No, you are just going by what is claimed about him in sales literature directed at an entirely different audience.
     
  16. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    No, I'm going by what is known of him in the gospels. The gospels are not "sales literature, any more than the Pentateuch is "sales literature." The source of much of Jesus' quotations is very early and very Galilean. I thought you might have something intelligent to offer here, which is why I mentioned you in the OP. But if all you're gong to offer is half-baked dismissal of the texts, you needn't bother wasting your time.
     
  17. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    I disagree. Matthew, at least, wasn't "divorcing Judaism," rather, he was pushing for his community of Diaspora Jews-turned-believers to see themselves as the "True Israel." Which is, in part, what led me to surmise that modern Judaism might be closer to what Jesus had visualized.
     
  18. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    Well, Judaism is full of Cristian-like concepts.
    But it's not an universal religion. It is a religion addressed to a group of people who believe they are superior to the others.

    I don't think they love all mankind as much as they love themselves.
    We Christians love all the nations and we welcome all the nations of the world into our Churches.

    and we don't expect any penis-cutting from men
     
    #18 Estro Felino, Aug 7, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2014
  19. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    Rhetoric to persuade Hellenist Proselytes and Gentiles, their version was the true version ;)


    And the unknown authors of that book were definitely divorcing Born and raised Israelite Judaism, in favor of their lets not follow all the laws of Judaism version, based on Marks appeal to the romans version of Judaism.





    Nope not at all.


    We ended up with a Pharisaic version of Judaism that funneled down all of that sects views into a orthodox version we have today.



    Now there are traces of Galilean Judaism in it, it is said Pharisaic Judaism was also wide and diverse with Hellenistic divisions in itself. Some of its followers are said to have mirrored some of Zealots views, and others mirroring Hellenistic versions.


    I think one could write a book on first century Judaism and not be able to describe it decently.

    Galilean Judaism was broke up into many versions, it was very diverse in its own right, and jesus version of his Galilean Judaism Is unknown in detail. This makes it impossible to give any answer with any certainty.

    We lack Jesus version because we ended up with no Aramaic literature to study from these poor hovels in Galilee.

    WE can assume with certainty some of their versions were apocalyptic in nature, centered around baptism and held pious views to Jewish scripture and customs.

    WE can be certain Hellenistic Greek speaking cities did not share anything close to this version, such as Sepphoris and Tiberius.

    We can also assume with certainty Jerusalem had many very different versions that would not have mirrored Aramaic Judaism.


    So as I wrote I have made an important distinction that needs to be addressed. "Aramaic Judaism", should be its own brand and name, instead of a blanket term like just Judaism, that in effect describes very little.
     
  20. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    Your post contributes nothing historical here, and only addresses your personal bias towards Judaism.

    Since Christianity is a perverted version of Judaism, I would expect it to share similarities :facepalm:
     
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