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Communism vs Socialism

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Do you think Cuba's poverty is a direct result of it's socialism? Didn't the US effectively embargo the country after the revolution? Wasn't it the American embargo that forced the starving populace into the arms of the Soviets?
Talking to the Cubans that I know who still live there... no

It was Cuba selling all their goods to Russia, not allowing the people to own animals, the killing of those who resisted and the taking away of all property. Not to mention that you were put in jail in you had American dollars and you were relegated to low wages "for the good of the country". That is "you are all equal and so equal wages" - except if you were in the upper government of course.

Like forced masks for everyone and no restaurants or hair salons unless you were a government official
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
According to Marx, Communism is an economic system where the workers control the means of production. People contribute to the economy based on their ability to do so, and receive from the economy based on their needs. That's it. No political system is implied.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Socialism, unlike Communism defends property.
It defends Capitalism, particularly the small entrepreneurship. That is why a Socialist Government wants entrepreneurs to prosper so they can pay taxes which are for public services.

A Socialist Government goes authoritharian when it deals with labor legislation.
That is, by forbidding to dismiss employees without just cause (called art. 18 in my country... So at-will contracts are forbidden.)
 

Secret Chief

nirvana is samsara
Part One. A History of Socialism from 1789-1917

Socialism (as a secular ideology) has it's origins in the French Revolution of 1789. Socialism, Communism and Anarchism were all part of the same ideology for most of the nineteenth century and the terms were used interchangeably.

In 1871, you had the Paris Commune and the repercussions to it led to a split in the "First International" between Anarchists and "Social Democrats" (Communists and Socialists), with Anarchists arguing against a post-revolutionary state and "Social-Democrats arguing for one.

With the failure of the first international, in the late nineteenth century you then had the "second internal", which was a high point of European Socialism. This started to break down after 1899, when Eduard Bernstein published "The Preconditions of Socialism", leading to debates on whether Socialism should be achieved by revolution (which became the Communists) or democratic reform (which became the Socialists).

In 1917, you had the Russian Revolution which led to the final split between Communists (who supported Lenin and the Bolsheviks) and Socialists (who opposed them). The Communists were then organised in to the "Third International" in 1919 which led to the formation of the international communist movement and the spread of Communist principles from Russia around the world.

Part Two. Socialism and Communism from 1917-1945

After 1917, disputes between Socialists and Communists over the use of term greatly confused the issue. Lenin (interpreting Marx) understood Socialism as the lower phase of communism. Hence the USSR was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and was not regarded as full communism, but only Socialist as the transitory stage. Of course, if you happen to be one of the anti-communist "democratic socialists", you are going to dispute that and there are a wide range of analyses that question the Socialist interpretation of the USSR as a "worker's and peasants state" as instead being the "dictatorship of the communist party" as a bureaucratic class.

During the 1920's and 1930's, groups of the far-right recognised that Communists and Socialists were incredibly successful and popular amongst working people. So to draw support away from them, they began to employ socialist terminology, hence the use of the term "national socialism" in Nazi Germany. Even in Nazi racial theory however, there is a clear distinction between "Ayran Socialism" (i.e. Nazism) and "Jewish Socialism" (i.e. Marxism/Communism) as conflicting ideologies.

By around 1950, "Democratic"/Anti-Communist Socialists began to change the very definition of Socialism. Before the Second World War Socialism had meant a commitment to public ownership, typically relying on Marxist economic theories. Afterwards, people began to talk about Socialism, not in terms of being economic system, but in terms of moral values. This eventually calumniated in the "New Labour" period in the 1990s where the Labour Party rejected public ownership but still claimed to be a "socialist" or "social democratic" party.

Part Three. ...Enter American Exceptionalism and the Cold War... 1945- the Present

Now, everything up to this point accounts for the International and European definition of Socialism and Communism. Americans did something completely different.

In the United States, there was never a Socialist, Social Democratic or Labour Party in the same way there was in western europe. Many of the changes brought in by Socialist Parties in Europe, were instead implemented by the Democratic Party under Franklin D. Roosevelt as part of the New Deal (excluding the Progressive era).

The definition of Socialism in America therefore wasn't a reflection of a particular ideology of a particular party. Instead, it evolved to describe nearly any aspect of state activity. As far as Americans were concerned, the state and socialism were interchangable.

F. A. Hayek's book "The Road to Serfdom" (1944) used the example of Germany to argue that Socialism inevitably evolves in to Fascism, Hayek's book wasn't widely published in the UK due to paper rationing, but was a major hit in the United States. Similar theories had been advanced before Hayek such as "The Managerial Revolution" by James Burnham (1941) , which was a influence of George Orwell's "1984".

In the context of the Cold War, this proved useful for equating Fascism and Communism as "socialist" ideologies because they both sought to expand the role of the state in the economy and society. Basically, it meant that the Soviets couldn't use the Second World War to claim to be "Anti-Fascists" because Americans decided they were "red fascists" or "totalitarians".

During the McCarthy era, Americans employed their fear of Socialism to attack anyone who had a slightly left-of-centre political views. It didn't matter whether you professed to believe in the Constitution, civil liberties or democracy because Socialism automatically leads to Communism, so your either a "useful idiot" or pathological liar for Moscow.

Part Four. Socialism: What does it mean anyway?

If the historical evolution of socialism and communism as ideologies and conflicting usages of the terms by their supporters and opponents wasn't confusing enough, there is a particular problem in the use of political language.

Marxism claimed to be a science and therefore claimed that the definition of Socialism and Communism could be objectively understood and that their definition was the only correct one. As Marxism lost popularity, the confusion only grows because western philosophers rejected Marxism's claim to be a science, including it's authority to define the words Socialism and Communism.

Hence, anti-communists could define communism and socialism in any way they saw fit and often in ways to maximise it's negative assocations, particularly in associating socialism with "coercion" and "violence", whilst exonerating capitalism of any association with coercion because it is based on "voluntary exchange" within the market place. Hence suddenly historical abuses such as slavery and colonialism aren't the fault of Capitalism, but of the state- and therefore somehow add to the reason to oppose "socialism".

Moreover, the Marxist definition of Science is basically "heretical" to western philosophical traditions because it treats the principles of natural science as appropriate to social science. Though ideas of history as a law governed evolutionary process were popular in the nineteenth century, by the twentieth century there was a profound movement away from this, asserting that every individual had free will and individual rights and there were no "laws of history" and that Marxism wasn't a scientific study of reality, but merely a social construct- or a "dogma", "faith", "religion", "ideology", etc (which ever term you prefer- they all generally mean the same thing- Marxism is "false" or "wrong"). The definition of Socialism and Communism were thus casualties of these disputes over the nature of truth, knowledge and science, because philosophers thought that language was a series of symbols which did not necessarily reflect an objective reality. abstract concepts such as "ownership", "property" and "means of production" thus started to lose all decipherable meaning entirely because they were treated more as opinions and less as objects of scientific study.

We are hence left with a legacy where Socialism and Communism are philosophically considered undefinable due to the limitations of our understanding of the meaning of language, and are politically defined by the victors of the Cold War to mean anything and everything that opposes the interests of rich people or involves the state in some tenuous way.

One frubal is not enuf, if only for explaining why some Americans are completely nuts.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
The point of this is not to attack either Communism or Socialism but to understand what people see as the difference between the two.
Some say it is not well defined, or maybe it is.

We spend a lot of time on Socialism, not a lot of debates on Communism.

I've also heard that Communism is the natural evolution of Socialism. Is that true/still true? Or is it its own political/economic ideology completely independent of Communism?

From what I understand, Communism is just a sub category of Socialism. The other sub category that I understand is Anarchism. Then you get subcategories of those.

From my limited understanding Communism is pro social hierarchy whereas Anarchism is opposed to hierarchy?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I'd run into that perspective before.
Going by any dictionary, the fact that both systems
have "the people" owning the means of production
makes them both socialist.
It came up when the Capitalist Only forum was created.
One socialist posted there saying that because the USSR
was called "state capitalism", she was entitled to post in
the new forum. The result....she didn't post in it.

The author of your linked article seems to lack expertise
anyway....
But this is, admittedly, a pretty unfamiliar area for me so I'm mostly fishing for comments and hoping to learn something from all of you ...
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I'd run into that perspective before.
Going by any dictionary, the fact that both systems
have "the people" owning the means of production
makes them both socialist.
It came up when the Capitalist Only forum was created.
One socialist posted there saying that because the USSR
was called "state capitalism", she was entitled to post in
the new forum. The result....she didn't post in it.

The author of your linked article seems to lack expertise
anyway....

It appears that the person who wrote that (in 2012) is or was a professor of economics at the University of Oregon. He did raise an interesting question just the same:

It seems to me that at least some aspects of the debate between Democrats and Republicans on how to run the government is really a debate over how the government should operate the enterprises it has control over (e.g. public goods). Should the government maximize profit, including outsourcing to the private sector whenever it might save a penny, or should social goals play a large role in how these entities are operated?

I think about this whenever I encounter arguments about privatization and which tasks and services should be provided directly by government as opposed to utilizing the private sector.

For example, in education, there are many who argue against public schools, based on the capitalistic notion that the state only does things badly, which is why they favor vouchers for private schools.

The assumption is that the private sector always does things better than the public sector.

It's also why we have privatized prisons and privatized healthcare, based on the (faulty) assumption that the state is incompetent and that the private sector always does things better.

The Post Office and Amtrak are also famous whipping boys of ideological capitalists, as they always point to them as failures of state-run enterprises.

Then there are things like road construction and the defense industry, both of which are state responsibilities, yet are often outsourced to private sector contractors.

I sometimes wonder if it's an ideological consideration that the state contracts out their responsibilities to the private sector. Even if the state had the capability of doing these things, there seems to be this religious belief that capitalists must profit no matter what, which is why they decide to outsource to the private sector.

I don't see how this is practical, nor have I ever seen any convincing hard evidence that the taxpayers are saving money this way.

Healthcare is a perfect example. We spend far more per patient on healthcare than they do in countries with socialized medicine, yet the quality of the care is not commensurate with the price we pay.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
It appears that the person who wrote that (in 2012) is or was a professor of economics at the University of Oregon. He did raise an interesting question just the same:



I think about this whenever I encounter arguments about privatization and which tasks and services should be provided directly by government as opposed to utilizing the private sector.

For example, in education, there are many who argue against public schools, based on the capitalistic notion that the state only does things badly, which is why they favor vouchers for private schools.

The assumption is that the private sector always does things better than the public sector.

It's also why we have privatized prisons and privatized healthcare, based on the (faulty) assumption that the state is incompetent and that the private sector always does things better.

The Post Office and Amtrak are also famous whipping boys of ideological capitalists, as they always point to them as failures of state-run enterprises.

Then there are things like road construction and the defense industry, both of which are state responsibilities, yet are often outsourced to private sector contractors.

I sometimes wonder if it's an ideological consideration that the state contracts out their responsibilities to the private sector. Even if the state had the capability of doing these things, there seems to be this religious belief that capitalists must profit no matter what, which is why they decide to outsource to the private sector.

I don't see how this is practical, nor have I ever seen any convincing hard evidence that the taxpayers are saving money this way.

Healthcare is a perfect example. We spend far more per patient on healthcare than they do in countries with socialized medicine, yet the quality of the care is not commensurate with the price we pay.
I once worked for a rail brake manufacturer (Knorr Bremse).
One problem I saw with Amtrak was that it spent much $$$
creating tracks suitable for high speed rail. The problem was
that fed regulations required allowing heavy freight trains on
the same tracks. This rendered them unsuitable for high speed.

Health care....I recall it being far far cheaper back in the 70s,
before the regulatory environment became more restrictive.
Companies I worked for provided it for free with no co-pay.
Obamacare saw a big increase in costs.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
The point of this is not to attack either Communism or Socialism but to understand what people see as the difference between the two.
Some say it is not well defined, or maybe it is.

We spend a lot of time on Socialism, not a lot of debates on Communism.

I've also heard that Communism is the natural evolution of Socialism. Is that true/still true? Or is it its own political/economic ideology completely independent of Communism?
there are documentaries in play on Netflix

this week I did watch Marx....followed by Neitzsche
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I once worked for a rail brake manufacturer (Knorr Bremse).
One problem I saw with Amtrak was that it spent much $$$
creating tracks suitable for high speed rail. The problem was
that fed regulations required allowing heavy freight trains on
the same tracks. This rendered them unsuitable for high speed.

I wonder why the Feds would impose those kinds of regulations? It's almost as if they were setting them up to fail.

Another problem with Amtrak is that it's functionally useless in lower-density areas outside of the urban Northeast. Europeans seem to have a far better handle on passenger rail.

Health care....I recall it being far far cheaper back in the 70s,
before the regulatory environment became more restrictive.
Companies I worked for provided it for free with no co-pay.
Obamacare saw a big increase in costs.

I think the increase started sooner, under Reagan, who favored deregulation. That's when we started hearing more about "co-pays" and "deductibles."
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I wonder why the Feds would impose those kinds of regulations? It's almost as if they were setting them up to fail.
There are practical considerations. Shared use of infrastructure
is efficient. We've lost many miles of rail since highways made
trucking more competitive.
Another problem with Amtrak is that it's functionally useless in lower-density areas outside of the urban Northeast. Europeans seem to have a far better handle on passenger rail.
Different cultures, histories, & economics.
I think the increase started sooner, under Reagan, who favored deregulation. That's when we started hearing more about "co-pays" and "deductibles."
The CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) actually expanded
under Reagan. Overall, it appears to have increased during
his administration. However, I do recall a year of decrease,
but it was under Clinton.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
There are practical considerations. Shared use of infrastructure
is efficient. We've lost many miles of rail since highways made
trucking more competitive.

Perhaps, but only when gas is cheaper and more plentiful.

Different cultures, histories, & economics.

But their economics is capitalist, too, right?

The CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) actually expanded
under Reagan. Overall, it appears to have increased during
his administration. However, I do recall a year of decrease,
but it was under Clinton.

Interesting. So even if Reagan publicly favored deregulation, he didn't actually do it in practice? (I guess that shouldn't be surprising, since he also claimed to be against deficit spending, but the deficit grew by leaps and bounds under his failed leadership.)
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Perhaps, but only when gas is cheaper and more plentiful.
And with electric cars coming onto the market,
the pressure to use rail still suffers.
But their economics is capitalist, too, right?
Yes.
Interesting. So even if Reagan publicly favored deregulation, he didn't actually do it in practice? (I guess that shouldn't be surprising, since he also claimed to be against deficit spending, but the deficit grew by leaps and bounds under his failed leadership.)
People tend to focus upon deregulation they dislike,
& not notice other regulation increasing. Also, it isn't
all up the the Prez...Congress plays a big role.
I wouldn't call his leadership "failed". He was quite
effective, having succeeded in many areas, eg,
ending the cold war with the USSR.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
And with electric cars coming onto the market,
the pressure to use rail still suffers.

Yes.

People tend to focus upon deregulation they dislike,
& not notice other regulation increasing. Also, it isn't
all up the the Prez...Congress plays a big role.
I wouldn't call his leadership "failed". He was quite
effective, having succeeded in many areas, eg,
ending the cold war with the USSR.

Gorbachev ended the Cold War unilaterally. Reagan had nothing to do with it. The only problem was that our own leadership didn't want the Cold War to end. They're still thinking in Cold War terms even now, since they can't see the world in any other way.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Gorbachev ended the Cold War unilaterally. Reagan had nothing to do with it.
That is a really fascinating view of history.
When 2 sides are at war, it takes 2 sides
to negotiate peace.
What I remember from back in the day....
Reagan and Gorbachev: Shutting the Cold War Down
When Gorbachev and Reagan Bonded, the Cold War Thawed
How Reagan Bankrupted the Soviet Union...

I see Reagan as a thoughtful man, who realized that his
strident anti-communist stance was dangerous & unnecessary.
Reversing his previous course, he approached detente methodically.
He exhibited an openness, flexibility, & pragmatism that was
sorely lacking in a President like Trump. Of course, Gorbachev
was necessary for peace to happen. I credit both of them.
(BTW I never voted for Reagan.)
Many others deserve credit, in particular, Susanne Massie.
The Lady Who Warmed Up the Cold War
She had no formal position in government, so her role has
been largely forgotten. Yet detente might not have happened
without her.
 
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Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Gorbachev ended the Cold War unilaterally. Reagan had nothing to do with it. The only problem was that our own leadership didn't want the Cold War to end. They're still thinking in Cold War terms even now, since they can't see the world in any other way.

I have never been fond of the Russian Government even when the Russians called it the Soviet Government. But it both stunned me and sickened me when the first Bush slapped down the first post-Soviet efforts on the part of the Russians to peacefully integrate themselves into our 'world order', as it's sometimes called.

They signaled they would have done it for little more than symbolic recognition as a nation equal to any in the West. Russian pride. That was about all we had to let them have.

How could Bush have been that stupid? He was asking for what's happened since. Just begging for it.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Socialism:
People own private property.
The people own the means of production.

Communism:
People don't own private property.
The people own everything.
Unfortunately in both cases, 'the people' almost always refers to those in power. Its elites.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Unfortunately in both cases, 'the people' almost always refers to those in power. Its elites.
Almost?
Nay.
Always.
This is because every country has a government to represent
(ostensibly) the people. And government is a separate entity,
with its own goals...which do sometimes coincide with the people's.
 
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