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Featured Colossians 1:15-16?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Eddi, Jan 24, 2023.

  1. Eli G

    Eli G Active Member

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    That is simply NOT what I can learn from the Bible.

    John 6:57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
     
  2. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    I did say that the Son's life comes from the Father. That is the same with any Son and Father. With the Son of God is does not mean that there was a beginning of the Son in time however.
    When we know that all things that came into existence, came into existence through the Word (John 1:3) we also know that the Word did not come into existence. IOWs the Word, the Son, has always been and has always been the Son who gets His life from His Father.
     
  3. Eli G

    Eli G Active Member

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    Good. Now meditate on what that means.

    Did you consider any of the reasons I posted here about why Jesus is not showed in the Scritpures as eternal in past?
    In what moment of that supposed past-eternity was Jesus appointed heir?

    Or was it at the moment of his own creation? ;)
     
  4. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    So how do you see scriptures like John 1:3? Why does it not mean to you that Jesus is not being shown as eternal in the past?
    I don't remember seeing reasons why Jesus is not shown to be eternal in the past in scripture. But as I said I see John 1:3 etc as saying that.
    I also see Jesus being called YHWH in the scriptures and that means the same thing.
    I also see something like Micah 5:2 which shows Jesus eternity into the past imo.

    Maybe when He became a man. Being an heir sounds like a human thing after all. So the man Jesus, although not the first man, or the fist thing created, is appointed to be the firstborn. (and yes Jesus is still human, a man )
    But tell me that you at least can see that Ps 89:27 tells us that God has appointed Him to be "firstborn, higher than the Kings of the earth".
    Being appointed firstborn means that "firstborn" does not mean just "first one born". It can be a position of appointment.
     

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  5. Eli G

    Eli G Active Member

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    Psal. 2:7 Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah;
    He said to me: “You are my son;
    Today I have become your father.
    8 Ask of me, and I will give nations as your inheritance
    And the ends of the earth as your possession. ..."

    @Brian2 , do you think pre-human Jesus was not the Son of God before becoming human?
     
  6. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    I see Jesus as the Son of God before becoming human. I suppose inheritance was not an issue until He became a human however.
    Even YHWH inherits the nations. What do you think the following verse means?
    Jesus inherits the nations (Psalm 2), YHWH inherits the nations. Is there an insinuation that the Son of Psalm 2 is the God of Psalm 82?

    Psalm 82: 8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
    for all the nations are your inheritance.
     
  7. Eli G

    Eli G Active Member

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    Well, let's say it in a diferent way: when became Jesus the Son of God?

    About John 1:3: it does NOT say anywhere Jesus is eternal in past. You are reading your mind, not the text.
     
  8. Eli G

    Eli G Active Member

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    About Psal. 82:8 there is a note on the NET Bible that says:

    "The translation assumes that the Qal of נָחַל (nakhal) here means “to own; to possess,” and that the imperfect emphasizes a general truth. Another option is to translate the verb as future, “for you will take possession of all the nations” (cf. NIV “all the nations are your inheritance”)."

    Which option of the two translations do you think is more appropriate regarding God, the Creator of the Universe?
     
  9. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    The Son has always been the Son.
    About John 1:3. If all things that have come into existence came into existence through Jesus that does mean that Jesus was not one of the things that came into existence. Hence it does tell us that Jesus has existed always.
     
  10. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    I don't know, I'm not really a language person. It could be either or even both translations.
    Jesus is said to inherit the nations (Psalm 2) but also we know that Jesus owns the nations already (John 16:15).
    Jesus inherits a name above all names. (YHWH) (Heb 1:4, Phil 2:9) but we know (I know) that Jesus was YHWH all along. YHWH spread out the heavens by Himself (Isa 44:24) but they are the work of Jesus, (Heb 1:10) so Jesus was YHWH in the creation.
     
  11. Eli G

    Eli G Active Member

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    The Creator is Owner, not heir.

    Sorry, but it is too late here. Other day we continue sharing some biblical info and reasoning about this topic.

    Good night.
     
  12. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    What does that make the Son who owns at the same time as being the heir?
     
  13. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    adam was the first born and so all pass through it. that is why he is called the son of god. so the visible/created is the image of the invisible/uncreated.
     
  14. Eli G

    Eli G Active Member

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    Mmmmh. I think that when you said in post#30 that you are "not really a language person" you really meant it.

    OWNER and HEIR have mutually exclusive meanings.

    The Scriptures, although they have divine origin, were transmitted through humans, with human language, so that humans could analyze the truths of God in our own common communication system: language. They could have been written by angels perhaps, but they would not have expressed those truths in the same way probably, because they live in a different type of context than human. That was an expression of love from Jehovah to us humans. Although some bible texts may seem a bit ambiguous, others are very explicit on the same subject, so with a more careful study we can reach the correct conclusions.

    But what would happen if we began to understand our own concepts inside our own words in capricious ways, to avoid recognizing what the words used actually mean? Or what if we started saying that the normal logic of language does not apply to God's revealed truths?

    Then all the help that God gives us with his written Word would be in vain. Anyone could give them any meaning they wanted; for example, there would be no difference between one and three, or it would be the same Son of God as God-Son, or heir than owner, or dead would not be the opposite of living, or a son could be the same age as a father, or one that it is the firstborn of a group would not be part of the group, etc ... all these statements are wrong from the point of view of the logic of human language. We just have to be honest with ourselves and accept that God expresses truths to us that we have to work to accept instead of wanting to change them to fit our beliefs.
     
  15. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus says that what the Father has belongs to Jesus. (John 16:15)
    The scriptures also tell us that Jesus is the heir of all things. (Heb 1:2)
    So which of these do you say is not the truth?

    John 1:3 is very explicit so we can reach the correct conclusion about other less clear verses.

    The "one" of the Shema can be a compound one.
    The trinity is not three Gods.

    Even the NWT calls Jesus God.
    John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.
    28 In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!”

    The living body is when our spirit is in the body. (see Genesis 2)
    The death of our body is when our spirit leaves our body. (see , James 2:26)
    That sounds like the opposite to me.
    The death of the soul that lives on after the death of the body (Matt 10:28) is another thing and it is the opposite of having a living soul.
    There are 2 types of death, the bodily death and the second death.

    In human terms the son is younger than the father since we are temporal beings. With Jesus the Son of God, He is the Son because He gets His life from His Father.

    Jesus can be part of creation without having been created. The Word who was not created (John 1:3) became a man, stepped into creation. So "of creation" in Col 1:15-16 is no problem.
    But the real problem is the meaning of "firstborn" which can mean "first one of a group to be born" or can mean "the preeminent one".
    Someone is the one who is born first by being born first, not by being appointed firstborn. So Psalm 89:27 shows us that the man spoken of in Psalm 89 was appointed to be firstborn. So "firstborn" in Psalm 89:27 does not mean "the one born first". The man in Ps 89:27 is Jesus and so we can see that "firstborn" in Col 1:15-16 does not mean "the one born first".

    Yes we should accept what God tells us.
     
  16. Eli G

    Eli G Active Member

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    Ditto.

    Thanks for your time.
     
  17. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    I just cannot believe what I'm hearing ....... from Christians??????
    or this,
    this is incredible to read.

    let's get the TRUTH. "First-Born".... Colossians 1:17 "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."
    Colossians 1:18 "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."

    let's break this down.

    before and head here in both scriptures signify he's the Father, and the FIRST of the NEW CREATION, as well as the OLD CREATION, supportive scripture, LISTEN CLOSLEY

    The New CREATION, Revelation 21:5 "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.". this is the Lord Jesus who sit on the throne here in Revelation, just read chapter 4. now this,Isaiah 65:17 "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."

    here, in Isaiah, it is the "LORD", all caps. and in Revelation 21 it is the "Lord" who will Create the New Heaves and the New Earth. Either it's the same one person, or else you have two CREATORS of the NEW HEAVENS and EARTH. ....... believe me, it's the same person. let's see it.

    Colossians 1:18 "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."

    question, "is not God the "FIRST?" yes, scripture, Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

    that term "beginning" as in Colossians 1:18 means "The FIRST", in the Hebrew at Genesis 1:1, it means,
    H7225 רֵאשִׁית re'shiyth (ray-sheeth') n-f.
    1. the first, in place, time, order or rank.
    2. (specifically) a firstfruit.
    [from the same as H7218]
    KJV: beginning, chief(-est), first(-fruits, part, time), principal thing.
    Root(s): H7218

    definition #1 says it all, "FIRST" and definition #2 confirms Colossians 1:18 which mean THE FRIST FRUIT OF THE HARVEST OF THE DEAD.
    and the root of this word, is,
    H7218 רֹאשׁ ro'sh (roshe) n-m.
    the head (as most easily shaken), whether literal or figurative (in many applications, of place, time, rank, itc.).

    yes, the HEAD as Colossians 1:18 states, "And he is the head of the body". head indicate FIRST, as well as "FATHER", because he is the "beginning" of all CREATION.... be it the OLD or the NEW.

    now, the term "preeminence" in Colossians 1:18. it is the Greek word,
    G4409 πρωτεύω proteuo (prō-tev'-ō) v.
    to be first (in rank or influence).
    [from G4413]
    KJV: have the preeminence
    Root(s): G4413

    there it is again, to be first
    and notice, it said ..... [from G4413]. ok, let's see what it says.
    G4413 πρῶτος protos (prō'-tos) adj.
    foremost (in time, place, order or importance).
    [contracted superlative of G4253]
    KJV: before, beginning, best, chief(-est), first (of all), former
    Root(s): G4253

    yes, he's the CHIEF, or head, or FATHER, as Isaiah 9:6 say "the EVERLASTING FATHER". now, the very next verse, Isaiah 9:7 "Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this."

    BINGO, there is no denying that.

    so, the conclusion Jesus is the Almighty God of the OT or Old Creation, as well as the NT, or the NEW CREATION, that is to come.

    he, JESUS, is the FIRST in Both CREATIONS. YES, Jesus is God in the ECHAD, of the Ordinal FIRST, and the Ordinal LAST, just as the term "beginning" states, in TIME, PLACE, ORDER, or RANK.

    hope this help.

    my source for all the definitions above, are from the Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments

    101G.
     
  18. Eli G

    Eli G Active Member

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    If you had the opportunity to travel in a time machine to talk to Jesus when he was human...

    do you think you and he would agree on who God is? :rolleyes:

    Would you try to convince him to become a Trinitarian? :question:

    What teaching of Jesus about who God is would you have brought back to this day and shared with your fellow believers? :)
     
  19. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    If I went back in time to meet Jesus I should probably fall to my knees and exclaim "My Lord and My God".
    Do you think He would correct me? And why, if He did not correct Thomas?
     
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  20. Eli G

    Eli G Active Member

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    That would assume that you had been following him for some time and accepted all the things that he had been communicating to his followers:

    Acts 10:40 God raised this one up on the third day and allowed him to become manifest, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God, to us, who ate and drank with him after his rising from the dead. 42 Also, he ordered us to preach to the people and to give a thorough witness that this is the one decreed by God to be judge of the living and the dead.

    Do you seriously think that Thomas' exclamation changes anything about the identity of Jesus or God?
     
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