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Colossians 1:15-16?

Brian2

Veteran Member
Do you seriously think that Thomas' exclamation changes anything about the identity of Jesus or God?

No, bit it does make it clear that Jesus is Thomas's God and therefore should be our God also.
You want to make Him a god but not your God.
 

Eli G

Well-Known Member
No, bit it does make it clear that Jesus is Thomas's God and therefore should be our God also.
You want to make Him a god but not your God.
I don't think that is what Thomas exclamation means. There is so much about that topic in the NT, that only a so desperate person could use an exclamation in a special moment to get a doctrine from it, really.

Actually, just some minutes before Jesus sent this message to all of them:

John 20:17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”

... but I understand your despair.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I don't think that is what Thomas exclamation means. There is so much about that topic in the NT, that only a so desperate person could use an exclamation in a special moment to get a doctrine from it, really.

Actually, just some minutes before Jesus sent this message to all of them:

John 20:17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”

... but I understand your desperation.

So you think it is an exclamation, like someone these days saying "Jeeeesuuus, oh my God".
Not I don't think Jews in those days did that. Thomas saw Jesus as His Lord and His God.
And yes Jesus Father is His God and that began when He entered the womb, when He became a man, and humans have a God (See Psalm 22:10)
And yes when He rose from the dead He remained a man and even had a human body (albeit a post resurrection human body) so His Father remains His God.
 

Eli G

Well-Known Member
So you think it is an exclamation, like someone these days saying "Jeeeesuuus, oh my God".
Not I don't think Jews in those days did that. Thomas saw Jesus as His Lord and His God.
It's Ok. We don't have to agree.
And yes Jesus Father is His God and that began when He entered the womb, when He became a man, and humans have a God (See Psalm 22:10)
And yes when He rose from the dead He remained a man and even had a human body (albeit a post resurrection human body) so His Father remains His God.
Too much talk and no biblical support. But it's Ok. You can choose what you want to believe. I am sure you have talked with other Jehovah's witnesses and they told you the same things I would tell you.

If you need to know something else, just ask.
It's late here. Good night.
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
What do you make of Colossians 1:15-16?

At first glance it is problematic for Christians but I don't think it is....

If you take the 15th verse out of context....

Here's the text:

15) The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

16) For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

What do you make of the section I have highlighted in bold?

Many use this to argue that Jesus is a created being.

And yes, at first glance it may appear to say that Jesus is a created being BUT this would be at odds with the 16th verse that comes after it, indeed it is at odds with many other verses that can be found in the bible

When studying the bible things have to be taken in context

I think it is talking of the humanity of Jesus

I think it means that Jesus as a human is pre-eminent over all whom he created in his capacity as The Word

I also think that "Firstborn" refers to Jesus being the most favoured and most senior being on Earth

And that "is the image of the invisible God" means that he is the image of God - like an avatar, or an incarnation

So, what verse 15 really says is that "Jesus is the incarnation of God and the most senior of all humans"

It is talking about him in terms of his divinity but also in terms of his humanity, it's saying he is both man and God
Galatians 4:4

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,



Yeshua/Jesus is Made/Created of a Woman and Made/Created Under the Law.
 

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
made of a woman
Yes, "made of a woman"

Developed in his mother's womb

His body developed in his mother's womb

He existed before his incarnation as Jesus

He existed as The Word

And when The Word became flesh he needed a body, a meat suit

He came into this world as a baby conceived by God who developed in a womb

As opposed to just magicing into existence fully grown

This scripture is about the humanity of Christ
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
Yes, "made of a woman"

Developed in his mother's womb

His body developed in his mother's womb

He existed before his incarnation as Jesus

He existed as The Word

And when The Word became flesh he needed a body, a meat suit

He came into this world as a baby conceived by God who developed in a womb

As opposed to just magicing into existence fully grown

This scripture is about the humanity of Christ
It appears you believe that your words carry more weight than the Holy Scriptures. That's typical of the 2.2 Billion of Christians in Christendom that cannot see the Real Value of the Holy Scriptures: Colossians 1:15-16?


The entire Holy Scripture of Galatians 4:4 is Precious. Jesus/Yeshua is Made/Created Under the Law.


Earthly Christians Reject the Law that Yeshua/Jesus is Made/Created Under.
 

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
It appears you believe that your words carry more weight than the Holy Scriptures. That's typical of the 2.2 Billion of Christians in Christendom that cannot see the Real Value of the Holy Scriptures: Colossians 1:15-16?


The entire Holy Scripture of Galatians 4:4 is Precious. Jesus/Yeshua is Made/Created Under the Law.


Earthly Christians Reject the Law that Yeshua/Jesus is Made/Created Under.
Can I ask, are you a Jehovah's Witness?

You seem to have the same beliefs and the same modus operandi
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
It appears you believe that your words carry more weight than the Holy Scriptures. That's typical of the 2.2 Billion of Christians in Christendom that cannot see the Real Value of the Holy Scriptures: Colossians 1:15-16?


The entire Holy Scripture of Galatians 4:4 is Precious. Jesus/Yeshua is Made/Created Under the Law.


Earthly Christians Reject the Law that Yeshua/Jesus is Made/Created Under.

Are you saying that Jesus was created?
Are you saying that because Jesus was born a Jew, under the law, that Christians are under the law as Jews are?
If Christians are under the New Covenant, do they also need to obey the law of the Old Covenant?
Do you think that those who love God and neighbour fulfill the requirements of the law?
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
Can I ask, are you a Jehovah's Witness?

You seem to have the same beliefs and the same modus operandi
That does not address the reason why you, @Eddi, Omitted the Holy Scriptures and only quoted part of Galations 4:4. Your response to #45 reveal that you are member of the 2.2 Billion Earthly Christian in Christendom that are Not and have Never been Saved. The Historical Yeshua/Jesus Cannot and has Never Really Saved anybody.

That is an Ignorant Question and Statement. If you are interested you can read some more of my posts.
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
Are you saying that Jesus was created?
Are you saying that because Jesus was born a Jew, under the law, that Christians are under the law as Jews are?
If Christians are under the New Covenant, do they also need to obey the law of the Old Covenant?
Do you think that those who love God and neighbour fulfill the requirements of the law?
Hebrews 10:9

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.



1) Certainly, Yeshua/Jesus is Created. I'm in Total Agreement with Everything in the Holy Scriptures/Bible from Genesis to Revelation.

2) When you Reject the Law you Reject Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ given that Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ is Created/Made Under the Law.

3) The 2.2 Billion Christians in Christendom don't Really know what the New Covenant is, having Never Practised the Old Covenant.

4) You cannot Really Love Elohim/God and Neighbour Without Being Under the Law.


The Above is from a Spiritual Perspective. It is Not Possible for an Earthly Christian to Keep the Law, neither do they have any Interest of doing so.

How can the First Covenant/Old Covenant be taken away to Establish the Second Covenant/New Covenant given that it is Not Practised? The Earthly Christian answer is the Historical Yeshua/Jesus.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
1) Certainly, Yeshua/Jesus is Created. I'm in Total Agreement with Everything in the Holy Scriptures/Bible from Genesis to Revelation.

Gal 4:4 does not tell us that Jesus was created.
Galatians 4:4 - Sons and Heirs

2) When you Reject the Law you Reject Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ given that Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ is Created/Made Under the Law.

Jews are born under the law.
Christians don't reject the law, Christians fulfill the law in the New Covenant way.

3) The 2.2 Billion Christians in Christendom don't Really know what the New Covenant is, having Never Practised the Old Covenant.

Paul and the other apostles knew what the New Covenant is and said that it was not necessary for Gentiles to be circumcised and obey the law. (Acts 15)

4) You cannot Really Love Elohim/God and Neighbour Without Being Under the Law.

Romans 2:14 - God's Righteous Judgment

How can the First Covenant/Old Covenant be taken away to Establish the Second Covenant/New Covenant given that it is Not Practised? The Earthly Christian answer is the Historical Yeshua/Jesus.

So?
 

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
That does not address the reason why you, @Eddi, Omitted the Holy Scriptures and only quoted part of Galations 4:4. Your response to #45 reveal that you are member of the 2.2 Billion Earthly Christian in Christendom that are Not and have Never been Saved. The Historical Yeshua/Jesus Cannot and has Never Really Saved anybody.

That is an Ignorant Question and Statement. If you are interested you can read some more of my posts.
So that's a yes then....

I think you should be more candid about your affiliation

But anyway....

What is your understanding of "created under the law"?
 

101G

Well-Known Member
GINOLJC, to all.
1) Certainly, Yeshua/Jesus is Created. I'm in Total Agreement with Everything in the Holy Scriptures/Bible from Genesis to Revelation.
Yeshua/Jesus is Created, How? book chapter and verse please.
2) When you Reject the Law you Reject Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ given that Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ is Created/Made Under the Law.
Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:"

Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." Romans 8:3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:" Romans 8:4 "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

The righteousness of the law? yes, the Lord Jesus is that righteousness of the LAW which he fulfilled, and NOW WE are in him, and because we are in him we have his righteousness. 1 Timothy 1:9 "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,"
1 Timothy 1:10 "For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;"

Uh O! "and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;" like false Doctrines, which are many out there.

bottom Line: Romans 5:17 "For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)"

101G.
 

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
you are member of the 2.2 Billion Earthly Christian in Christendom that are Not and have Never been Saved. The Historical Yeshua/Jesus Cannot and has Never Really Saved anybody.
Go on then, what do I need to do to be saved?

John 3:16 makes it clear that to be saved you need to believe in Jesus

Romans 3:28 indicates that faith is what saves you - faith in Jesus

As does John 14:6

Salvation obviously comes through faith in Jesus Christ

Ephesians 2:8 explains that the opportunity to be saved by Jesus is a gift from God

You call yourself a Christian but deny that Jesus saves!

That is the main message of Christianity!

I'm sorry, but I actually find that funny
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
Gal 4:4 does not tell us that Jesus was created.
Galatians 4:4 - Sons and Heirs



Jews are born under the law.
Christians don't reject the law, Christians fulfill the law in the New Covenant way.



Paul and the other apostles knew what the New Covenant is and said that it was not necessary for Gentiles to be circumcised and obey the law. (Acts 15)



Romans 2:14 - God's Righteous Judgment



So?
Matthew 28:18

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.



625px-Oblater_Alterbr%C3%B8d_3.jpg



Patene-byzantine.jpg



By your answers you have confirmed that you are an Earthly Christian and member of the Universal Roman Catholic Church. Elohim/God teaches in the Holy Scriptures/Bible Esoteric and Exoteric Knowledge. Exoteric Knowledge is for Earthly Christianity.

The Universal Roman Catholic Church is Ordained by Elohim/God to have Dominion over the Earth.
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
GINOLJC, to all.

Yeshua/Jesus is Created, How? book chapter and verse please.
Galatians 4:4

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,




Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:"

Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." Romans 8:3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:" Romans 8:4 "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

The righteousness of the law? yes, the Lord Jesus is that righteousness of the LAW which he fulfilled, and NOW WE are in him, and because we are in him we have his righteousness. 1 Timothy 1:9 "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,"
1 Timothy 1:10 "For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;"

Uh O! "and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;" like false Doctrines, which are many out there.

bottom Line: Romans 5:17 "For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)"

101G.
2 Peter 3:15-16

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.



Your Interpretation is the Universal Roman Catholic Church's Interpretation. You don't understand Paul the Apostle's writings.
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
Go on then, what do I need to do to be saved?

John 3:16 makes it clear that to be saved you need to believe in Jesus

Romans 3:28 indicates that faith is what saves you - faith in Jesus

As does John 14:6

Salvation obviously comes through faith in Jesus Christ

Ephesians 2:8 explains that the opportunity to be saved by Jesus is a gift from God

You call yourself a Christian but deny that Jesus saves!

That is the main message of Christianity!

I'm sorry, but I actually find that funny
Is Powerful Faith Demonstrated by what Yeshua/Jesus does on the Cross?
 
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