Circumcision - why exactly?

[Karolina]

I am trying to understand why the removal of a healthy part of a human organ came to represent a covenant with God. I'm particularly interested in hearing from those of you who have a more Liberal and less literal understanding of the Scriptures, since I get that the latter would basically say "God told us to and we don't question God". I can respect that.

My Question is, if your tradition has taken a more allegorical approach to scripture interpretation, then why does infant circumcision remain such an ingrained part of your Jewish identity? Especially in the United States, where it does not actually set you apart since it's so common among American gentiles. And what's more, I wonder how exactly would one's private parts set anyone apart from others? It's the most private part of the body that I would imagine most people do not generally share with others. So how can most people tell that you're circumcised and therefore committed to God?

I've read lots of secular rhetoric for and against male infant circumcision when making my decision to leave my son intact, and I really still don't get it. I can appreciate an adult choosing this as a way to show his commitment to God (I guess?) But marking a baby this way seems odd to me. And I don't mean that disrespectfully, I just don't get it, that's all. And I know there's a movement within Judaism (and Islam, which also calls for circumcision) of intactivists, so I'm not completely out in left field questioning this practice.
Thanks for whatever insights you can give me.

 

[Harel13]

"God told us to and we don't question God"

I hope you don't take Orthodox Jews to be robots. We also have questions and we also search for answers. There are reasons for circumcision beyond "God said" (though this is still an important aspect of Judaism). Asking questions is an important part of Judaism. Look at the Talmud - questions upon questions, sometimes about the most nit-picky details!

 

[dybmh]

From a medical perspective ( sources available on request )... if a male is going to be circumcised... the BEST time to do it is as an infant.

That's the best reason I can come up with. Not being circumcised is an obstacle for a Jewish man if they choose to be observant. So, as a parent, I wouldn't want my child to have an obstacle to their observance later in life, just in case.

If they are angry about it after the fact, and, G-d forbid, sue me for damages. So be it. It's no different than limiting the amount of TV they have or potentially throwing out the TV altogether once the child is born. It's about raising the child and giving them opportunity without obstacles.

 

[Flankerl]

I hope you don't take Orthodox Jews to be robots

01011001 01100101 01110011 00100000 01110111 01100101 00100000 01100001 01110010 01100101 00100000 01101110 01101111 01110100 00100000 01100001 01110101 01110100 01101111 01101101 01100001 01110100 01101111 01101110 01110011 00100001 00100000 01001001 00100000 01100110 01101111 01110010 00100000 01101111 01101110 01100101 00100000 01100001 01101101 00100000 01100001 00100000 01101000 01110101 01101101 01100001 01101110 00100000 01100010 01100101 01101001 01101110 01100111 00101110

 

[Harel13]

01011001 01100101 01110011 00100000 01110111 01100101 00100000 01100001 01110010 01100101 00100000 01101110 01101111 01110100 00100000 01100001 01110101 01110100 01101111 01101101 01100001 01110100 01101111 01101110 01110011 00100001 00100000 01001001 00100000 01100110 01101111 01110010 00100000 01101111 01101110 01100101 00100000 01100001 01101101 00100000 01100001 00100000 01101000 01110101 01101101 01100001 01101110 00100000 01100010 01100101 01101001 01101110 01100111 00101110

Hang on, my C++ Aramaic is a little rusty, let me get my dictionary...

 

[dybmh]

@Harel13 : ( link )

 

[Harel13]

@Harel13 : ( link )

Thanks!

 

[Harel13]

So how can most people tell that you're circumcised and therefore committed to God?

This is assuming everything one does in worship of God must be made public to everyone. As in every relationship, some things are kept private, although in this case, it's not exactly private. Since most Jews, to my knowledge, are circumcised, then most people know that that person is circumcised...

 

[dybmh]

01011001 01100101 01110011 00100000 01110111 01100101 00100000 01100001 01110010 01100101 00100000 01101110 01101111 01110100 00100000 01100001 01110101 01110100 01101111 01101101 01100001 01110100 01101111 01101110 01110011 00100001 00100000 01001001 00100000 01100110 01101111 01110010 00100000 01101111 01101110 01100101 00100000 01100001 01101101 00100000 01100001 00100000 01101000 01110101 01101101 01100001 01101110 00100000 01100010 01100101 01101001 01101110 01100111 00101110

Oh, so there is a human behind the yellow and red armor plating...

Good to know.

 

[dybmh]

This is assuming everything one does in worship of God must be made public to everyone. As in every relationship, some things are kept private, although in this case, it's not exactly private. Since most Jews, to my knowledge, are circumcised, then most people know that that person is circumcised...

When my wife and I decided to give my son a Bris... neither of us were religious. And my wife to this day considers herself an agnostic/atheist. Do you know what she told me that made the decision for her?

She said that she didn't want my son to be limited in which girls he could date and potentially marry. It didn't have to do with my Son's potential level of observance. She was thinking about his potential wife, and she didn't want his opportunity to be limited.

True story.

 

[Harel13]

She was thinking about his potential wife, and she didn't want his opportunity to be limited.

Doesn't this have something to do with potential level of observance?

 

[dybmh]

Doesn't this have something to do with potential level of observance?

Not in my house... I'm super spiritual and religious and my wife isn't. The same could happen to him. We actually have friends just like this... several couples now that I think about it.

The wife is super spiritual. the husband not so much.

 

[Rival]

When my wife and I decided to give my son a Bris... neither of us were religious. And my wife to this day considers herself an agnostic/atheist. Do you know what she told me that made the decision for her?

She said that she didn't want my son to be limited in which girls he could date and potentially marry. It didn't have to do with my Son's potential level of observance. She was thinking about his potential wife, and she didn't want his opportunity to be limited.

True story.

That's odd.

What has being cut to do with this? A U.S. thing? Most Europeans aren't cut.

 

[dybmh]

That's odd.

What has being cut to do with this? A U.S. thing? Most Europeans aren't cut.

I guess I'd have to ask my wife for details. But she will possibly be embarrassed that I am speaking so candidly about her on the Internet...

Edit to add: I'm guessing she would say... Her concern is that he'll fall for an observant woman, but she won't be interested in a long term relationship unless he has a circumcision later in life, and that's a pretty big ask for a Dude.

 

[dybmh]

@Rival ,

Please see the edit to my post above... does that help explain it?

 

[dybmh]

Most Europeans aren't cut.

Most European Jews don't have a Bris? Even in the hospital with a Mohel-Medical-Doctor?

 

[Rival]

Most European Jews don't have a Bris? Even in the hospital with a Mohel-Medical-Doctor?

Most non-Jewish European men. I was assuming she wasn't bothered about him marrying a non-Jew given her non-observance.

 

[dybmh]

Most non-Jewish European men. I was assuming she wasn't bothered about him marrying a non-Jew given her non-observance.

Yup. Exactly.

So, she wants him to be able to marry a non-observant secular girl, a modern Jewish girl, an ultra orthodox girl.... whatever...

That's why we found a Mohel, and had it done in our home... Old-School. It gives him the most options and opportunity and reduces potential obstacles from his life.

 

[Rival]

Yup. Exactly.

So, she wants him to be able to marry a non-observant secular girl, a modern Jewish girl, an ultra orthodox girl.... whatever...

That's why we found a Mohel, and had it done in our home... Old-School. It gives him the most options and opportunity and reduces potential obstacles from his life.

Most European women would find cut the weird option!

 

[dybmh]

@Karolina,

Maybe that'a way to look at it? It's a small piece of skin that acts as a barrier, an obstacle, towards observance of the Torah.

There's a Torah quote alluding to "circumcising the heart"? same thing.

If you want to really go deep into this... here's a link:

Chassidic Discourse on Circumcision (English) - "On that very day, Abraham was circumcised…"