Christians - What do you think of this chart?

[Karl R]

This chart is derived directly from passages in the Bible. It is neither a dogma of the church at Folsom, nor one man's opinion. It is a chart based exclusively on what we know God says (through the Bible) on this issue. So, what are the reasons that some of you disagree with it?

Partially due to the scriptures this chart chooses to ignore:

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

"Then the King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

"They also will answer, 'Lord when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
(Matthew 25:31-46 NIV)

This passage suggests that entry into heaven is based on how compassionately we treat others. It says nothing about what we believe or who we choose to worship.


Then this chart shows the traditional lake of fire. Other places in the bible describe the after life for the unrighteous in a different way:

They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out of the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power.
(2 Thessalonians 1:9 NIV)

According to this verse, the evil are destroyed, they're not in god's presence, that's the end. According to the chart, after everlasting destruction the evil go to a lake of eternal fire.

Applying just a wee bit of logic, if someone's been eternally destroyed, what's left of them to go into a lake of fire?


I realize that the bible describes "hell" in several different ways: eternal death, eternal separation, eternal suffering, eternal fire. That's led me to believe that people really don't know or understand what the afterlife is going to be like.

Folsom's chart claims that one of the descriptions is accurate. What makes them so certain?

Given the structure of this chart, I can't tell if the person who put it together was trying to construct a logical chart out of sometimes conflicting scripture, or whether they were picking and choosing verses to fit their chart.

 

[Linus]

Partially due to the scriptures this chart chooses to ignore:

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

"Then the King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

"They also will answer, 'Lord when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
(Matthew 25:31-46 NIV)

This passage suggests that entry into heaven is based on how compassionately we treat others. It says nothing about what we believe or who we choose to worship.

So, you think we are just ignoring passages like this? Of course not! There is a multitude of scripture that speaks of death, heaven, hell, salvation, and the afterlife in general. Just because they are not listed in the chart, doesn't mean they aren't part of what the Folsom church believes, because there is obviously more to speak of. Besides, treating others with love and compassion seems to fit under the umbrella of being Christ-like, in my opinion...

Then this chart shows the traditional lake of fire. Other places in the bible describe the after life for the unrighteous in a different way:

They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out of the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power.
(2 Thessalonians 1:9 NIV)

According to this verse, the evil are destroyed, they're not in god's presence, that's the end. According to the chart, after everlasting destruction the evil go to a lake of eternal fire.

Applying just a wee bit of logic, if someone's been eternally destroyed, what's left of them to go into a lake of fire?

Perhaps the lake of fire is that destruction. I don't know. It seems that the phrase "eternal destruction" means a destruction that lasts for an eternal amount of time. Like it's a continuous and ongoing process, as opposed to one destruction that lasts for eternity. It also seems Jesus thought that it was something that was eternal according to Mark 9:48.

I realize that the bible describes "hell" in several different ways: eternal death, eternal separation, eternal suffering, eternal fire. That's led me to believe that people really don't know or understand what the afterlife is going to be like.

Good point. But we can make certain assumptions because there are certain things that ARE clearly laid out within scripture.

Folsom's chart claims that one of the descriptions is accurate. What makes them so certain?

It seems to me that it is more of a general outline than a specific and detailed step-by-step description. It appears that they are taking a few, more general passages and making an outline, rather than list every passage on every passage on the issue.

 

[sojourner]

This chart is derived directly from passages in the Bible. It is neither a dogma of the church at Folsom, nor one man's opinion. It is a chart based exclusively on what we know God says (through the Bible) on this issue. So, what are the reasons that some of you disagree with it?

It is a chart based exclusively on what some think they know God says through the Bible on this issue. It works that way if you believe that death finally wins out over God's will, and if you believe that God's love is conditional.

Why do I disagree with it? Because I don't read the Bible literalistically. I read the Bible critically, and I prioritize scriptural passages according to how truly those passages portray God. If God is love, and if the first attribute of love is patience -- and the second kindness, then passages about a vengeful, spiteful, judgmental God who sends most of God's children to eternal torment are out of line with who God is.

I disagree with it because, in my experience of God, patience and kindness are at the top of the list. Therefore, there is a disconnect between the written experience of the Biblical writer and my own experience. I choose my personal experience of God over someone else's personal experience of God.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I think that the chart is silly, too. It's almost laughable that what they think is Christian theology can be reduced to a coloring book.

 

[Squirt]

I think that the chart is silly, too. It's almost laughable that what they think is Christian theology can be reduced to a coloring book.

Well, to quote lilithu, "To say that the chart is 'interesting' does not really say anything." I agreed, so I explained how my perspective differs from the one Linus posted.

To say it's "silly" doesn't really say anything either. What's silly about it? Obviously you believe in an earth life, in heaven and in hell. If the chart is just too "laughable" for your obviously sophisticated taste, why not enlighten the rest of us with your superior understanding? Try not to talk over our heads, though, okay?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Well, to quote lilithu, "To say that the chart is 'interesting' does not really say anything." I agreed, so I explained how my perspective differs from the one Linus posted.

To say it's "silly" doesn't really say anything either. What's silly about it? Obviously you believe in an earth life, in heaven and in hell. If the chart is just too "laughable" for your obviously sophisticated taste, why not enlighten the rest of us with your superior understanding? Try not to talk over our heads, though, okay?

I thought that I was clear in my post.

I didn't only say that it was silly.

I said

what they think is Christian theology can be reduced to a coloring book

It is pathetic to me that people who do stuff like this can reduce what they think is Christian theology into a coloring book. By reduction I mean that all of the paradoxes in Christian theology are eliminated (reduced) into a factual diagram. The diagram presupposes that all other possibilities in multiple texts are not possible, and that everthing in the diagram will occur in a very concrete sense. However, there are paradoxes in Scripture (how the text appears) and in theology (how Christians assemilate the various meanings and interpretations of the text into meaningful dogmas).

Theological Protests
Also, it seems to clearly demarcate heaven and hell as concrete places, when they could be myths or states of being.

It does not define anything.

 

[Squirt]

Also, it seems to clearly demarcate heaven and hell as concrete places, when they could be myths or states of being.

So do you believe that Heaven is merely a state of being?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

So do you believe that Heaven is merely a state of being?

It is a possibility, but the diagram is obviously meant for a group who already understands all of the meanings behind the words.

All it says is "resurrection" and points to "eternity." That can be interpreted several different ways... it indicates to me something very concerete because I suspect that only fundie wierdos would come up with something like this in the first place.

 

[Squirt]

I suspect that only fundie wierdos would come up with something like this in the first place.

As tolerant as always.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

As tolerant as always.

Does your evidence match your conclusions?

I am tolerant of them - I just think that they're silly.

 

[Squirt]

Does your evidence match your conclusions?

I am tolerant of them - I just think that they're silly.

Yes, I know. You're tolerant of "fundie weirdos." Thanks for reminding me.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Yes, I know. You're tolerant of "fundie weirdos." Thanks for reminding me.

Great.

 

[Squirt]

Great.

Your mailbox is full. So, why are you wasting your hard-earned money on buying me beers anyway? Is this some sort of a peace offering?

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

I would say I basically agree with the chart, it seems quite sound as far as Biblical/Christian doctrine goes...Also, I don't think that it is "frightening" since I don't think that type of systematic chart was designed for evangelistic purposes in sharing with non-Christians...I think it was designed pretty obviously for someone who is at least somewhat familiar with the Bible and concepts such as Judgement, Resurrection, etc., most notably, knowledgeable Christians.

 

[Squirt]

I would say I basically agree with the chart, it seems quite sound as far as Biblical/Christian doctrine goes...Also, I don't think that it is "frightening" since I don't think that type of systematic chart was designed for evangelistic purposes in sharing with non-Christians...I think it was designed pretty obviously for someone who is at least somewhat familiar with the Bible and concepts such as Judgement, Resurrection, etc., most notably, knowledgeable Christians.

Now according to some people, that would make you a "fundie weirdo."

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

I would say I basically agree with the chart. It seems quite sound in terms of Biblical/Christian soteriology. I don't really see it as "frightening", since I highly doubt the chart was intended to be used for evangelism to non-Christians. It seems pretty obvious to me that an systematic kind of chart such as that one would be intended for Christians, or at least people with general knowledge of Christian theology, who understand what is specifically meant by Judgement, Resurrection, Hades, Sheol, etc etc

FerventGodSeeker

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

oops, just realized I said the same thing twice, lol....I thought I was posting on the wrong forum at first.......It's ok, I don't really care what names secularist/atheist liberals would like to call me, to be honest....

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18

 

[dorcas3000]

So...according to this chart we are 'separated' before the judgement. How does that pan out?

 

[Mister_T]

My question is why is the reward of Heaven the focus of so many churches? How 'bout a chart of sacrificial love? Where's the chart that shows how to help the needy and feed the poor?

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

So...according to this chart we are 'separated' before the judgement. How does that pan out?

At the Judgement, we are separated as "sheep" and "goats"...see Matthew 25:31-46