Christians - the LDS christ

[SoyLeche]

Would you agree that your theology forms your view of Christ? Who He is? How He is? What does He want from us? etc. So in essense one can have a very immature/unwatered view of Christ. Do I personally think God will accept such a view seeing the circumstances of the individual? I think so. God has enough (if you one wishes to quantify it) Grace and Love to go beyond the walls of Christianity.

Peace be with you

Do you agree that yours does too?

 

[SoyLeche]

All that means, then, is that there are different kinds of Christians - but we already knew that. The Catholics and the Baptists can have different views of who Christ is, and that's fine - it's just their oppinion - they are still all Christians. But if the Mormon's have a different view of who Christ is - they are worshipping another Christ so they can't be Christians. Like I said before - some people will alter the definition of Christian as much as they need to to make sure that Mormons don't fit.

You can ignore this post if you like... I forgot which thread we were in.

 

[Quiddity]

Do you agree that yours does too?

It certainly does. What would you think of someone who believes that Christ is ok with rape for example. But he also thinks that Christ is God and his Savior. Is this man a Christian?

 

[dan]

1800 years later, Mr. Smith and his followers completely redefined all of theological definitions in the NT, creating a different religion. We can choose the new or stay with the old, but no one can deny that the definitions are drastically different.

Please point out one concrete (not founded on interpretation) definition that was changed. I expect you to hang your entire argument on this one definition, so that your success or failure in defending it will end this debate without pages and pages of meaningless carrying on.

 

[Aqualung]

That would be a waste of time. You have definitions of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit that come from LDS tradition. Why should I quote bible verses that will be interpreted from this perspective, and I from mine? I don't want to waste our time with such an exercise.

Because what other way do we have to debate this?

 

[Garret]

I was wondering Angellous_evangellous what are you exact beliefs in the Son Jesus Christ. I wish to know who you think he is, what he has done, why he came here, if he is seperate from the Father, and whatever else you have to tell me.

 

[Quiddity]

Hi Garret, welcome to the forum. You can introduce yourself here:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/you-new-religiousforums-com/

And also meet the moderating staff here:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/know-your-moderators/

Hope you enjoy the forum.

 

[SoyLeche]

It certainly does. What would you think of someone who believes that Christ is ok with rape for example. But he also thinks that Christ is God and his Savior. Is this man a Christian?

Yes, he would be a Christian - although a very misguided one.

 

[dan]

The Father - flesh, in the form of a man, had sex with Mary ('as a result of natural action') because he wouldn't let any other man do it. Not as the Bible says as a result of the Holy Spirit - which incidently is the only way she could have remained a virgin, as she didn't have sex. So since Mormans are actually told that the Father who is flesh had sex with Mary in the natural way to give Jesus, how is Mary still a Virgin? How was Jesus born of a Virgin?

This is a disgusting argument. The Bible says the Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary. This was done so she could bear the presence of the Father, but He could have waved His hand, touched her stomach, snapped His fingers or done anything to fertilize Mary's egg. ONe thing we know for sure is that Mary was a virgin (in every sense of the word) when Christ was born.

You're putting horrible, horrible words into our mouths and you know they're not true. Don't pretend for a second that you have a degree of understanding of our doctrine that comes close to matching or eclipsing mine. You only know what anti-Mormon websites and literature breastfeed you. You have perverted our doctrine and are now passing it of as official. It is no such thing, and you should be ashamed to actually subscribe to those ideas.

 

[Quiddity]

Yes, he would be a Christian - although a very misguided one.

:biglaugh: You saw what was coming and answered accordingly. So you could believe anything about Christ so long as you think He is God and can save you. That right?

 

[SoyLeche]

:biglaugh: You saw what was coming and answered accordingly. So you could believe anything about Christ so long as you think He is God and can save you. That right?

And be able to honestly call yourself a Christian? Yes. And be in accordance with the Gospel of Christ? No.

 

[dan]

The funny thing about this is that we don't exclude people because they believe differently than we do. Christ said that any man acting or speaking in his name is our brother. We don't deny that classification to anyone, yet others find it necessary (and even waste hours upon hours of time trying to prove it) to exclude us. I define a Christian by the love in your heart, irrespective of your sect of Christianity. I know many Mormons that I don't consider to be Christian because they are full of hate and anger. I find very few of these arguments edifying or uplifting. Maybe you should worry more about your own faith than that of others.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I was wondering Angellous_evangellous what are you exact beliefs in the Son Jesus Christ. I wish to know who you think he is, what he has done, why he came here, if he is seperate from the Father, and whatever else you have to tell me.

I have an Ask Angellous thread just for this type of question. (click it - it's a link!)


Welcome to RF!

Take care,
AE

 

[SoyLeche]

And be able to honestly call yourself a Christian? Yes. And be in accordance with the Gospel of Christ? No.

Also, according to some of the people that I've seen on TV, as long as he had "accepted Christ" by saying a little prayer, he is not just a Christian, but guaranteed a place in Heaven.

BTW - I don't buy it.

 

[Quiddity]

Also, according to some of the people that I've seen on TV, as long as he had "accepted Christ" by saying a little prayer, he is not just a Christian, but guaranteed a place in Heaven.

BTW - I don't buy it.

Neither do I. My intention (if you haven't noticed) is in trying to figure out exactly where you draw the line in regards to calling someone Christian.

 

[Endless]

Yes, Dan, but what are you getting so upset about if it's obvious that i am misguided...except perhaps if it is because the quotes are so damning?

Why is it a disgusting arguement that the Father who is flesh and is in the form of a man, had sex with Mary to produce his offspring which was Jesus? Why is that disgusting and it isn't disgusting when any other mortal man does it to have children Dan? Why are these words so horrible to you? Is there something wrong or sinful about the act of sex?

The Bible says the Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary. This was done so she could bear the presence of the Father, but He could have waved His hand, touched her stomach, snapped His fingers or done anything to fertilize Mary's egg.

The Bible doesn't say that it was so she could bear the presence of the Father...infact neither should you because you believe that the Holy Spirit is flesh and is a man - are you saying that one man 'overshadowed' Mary so the other man (the Father) could impregnate her? You are treading on very very dangerous territory here because that sounds very much like two men raping a woman - but those are your interpretations, not mine.

No Dan, the quotes are quite damning for this is what they show:

1. Brigham Young - says it was as a result of natural action.
2.Jesus was not created by the Holy Spirit
3.The Father himself came because he didn't want any other man to do it.
4.The Father God was the literal parent of Jesus in the flesh as well as the spirit.
5."Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers,".
6."There is nothing figurative about his [Jesus’] paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events"

Actually it means that an egg was fertilized and grew to becoem a human being. All human beings go through that process, but sex is not necessarily a part of it.

Sex is the natural course of events Dan - i doubt even you would try to argue that people are conceived in some other 'natural' way.

Because you keep putting it in bold and underlining it.

Sorry the word 'natural' just keeps cropping up in the quotes - i guess they must mean that Jesus was conceived in the normal and natural course of events without any degree of mysticism.

What does page 822 of your copy of Mormon Doctrine say? You must have a copy if you're so well versed in its teachings. Only an idiot would copy an uncontexted quote from an anti-Mormon website and actually try to use it in an argument. You obviously are very concerned with making sure we understand that you know our religion better than we do, so what does it say on page 822?

I never said i understand your religion better than you, but even those who follow religions make mistakes between what they think they believe and what their religion actually teaches. Perhaps this is a mistake you have made Dan. I'm only quoting.

"And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events,...Christ is the Son of Man, meaning that his Father (the Eternal God!) is a Holy Man." (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, page 742.)

Tell me SoyLeche, the above quote states that Jesus was conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events - in the same personal, real and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. Could you then explain how the normal course of events in the same way that a son is born to a Father, does not include sex?

Would you care to explain Dan?

 

[Aqualung]

Yes, Dan, but what are you getting so upset about if it's obvious that i am misguided...except perhaps if it is because the quotes are so damning?

He's probably getting mad at the fact that they aren't damning. They're only damning if you read them wrong, and misinterpret them. And they you pass yourself off as an expert. You would think a latter-day sait would know a little bit more about how to interpret latter day saint sayings a little bit better than some guy. You refuse to accept that you are interpreting it wrong, even we know how to interpret it.

infact neither should you because you believe that the Holy Spirit is flesh and is a man

*sigh* We don't believe that AT ALL. Seriously, stop trying to tell us what we do and don't believe. You know probably as much about LDS doctrine as a 2 year old mormon. That's sad.

 

[SoyLeche]

Neither do I. My intention (if you haven't noticed) is in trying to figure out exactly where you draw the line in regards to calling someone Christian.

I have said that 3 or 4 times already. Here's the dictionary.com definition:

Chris·tian ([font=verdana, sans-serif] P [/font]) Pronunciation Key (kr

s

ch

n)
adj.

1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.

n.

1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.

The man you described fits the first part of definition #1 - therefore he can classify himself as a Christian.

 

[Endless]

You refuse to accept that you are interpreting it wrong, even we know how to interpret it.

This is the problem, i'm not interpreting it - i'm taking it for what it means, it is you that is interpreting it into what you think it should mean. Your protests that i am misinterpreting are unsupported because you cannot answer my questions that i put up with the quotes.
No, i think it is you that should stop doing the interpretation and just read it. Remember i am unbiased, i am not a Morman, it doesn't make one bit of difference to me whether i am wrong or not.



As to the Holy Spirit you are correct, i had not realised that Mormans create a difference between the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit. The first of which is a being, the second of which i believe you call the essence of God? Something like that. The only difference in the Bible is that Ghost is used instead of spirit in old english (hence the term Holy Ghost) but in modern english we call a Ghost a spirit (hence the term Holy Spirit). In anycase, it doesn't take away from the fact that you cannot answer my questions concerning the quotes - take my last quote of the question that i put to Dan, can you answer it? I don't think so.

 

[Quiddity]

I have said that 3 or 4 times already. Here's the dictionary.com definition:

Chris·tian ([font=verdana, sans-serif] P [/font]) Pronunciation Key (kr

s

ch

n)
adj.

1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.

n.

1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.

The man you described fits the first part of definition #1 - therefore he can classify himself as a Christian.

It says "or following" SoyLeche. Meaning you don't have to if you don't wanna. Is this really the definition you want to stick with? I didn't know I could find LDS understanding of this by merely looking at local dictionary.