Christians - the LDS christ

[angellous_evangellous]

All covenants are voluntary.

Ok. If the covanent breaking can keep one out of the Celestial Kingdom, can not making a covanent have the same effect? If so, it seems compulsary.

We perform proxy work in our temples for everyone so that they will have the opportunity to accept or reject these covenants. Could be anything. Spiritually, there is the possibility of not being admitted into the Celestial Kingdom if you break your covenants and don't repent. In the end, if you break your covenants, you don't qualify for the associated blessings. In regards to the church, breaking your covenants could result in excommunication or disfellowship from the church. In minor instances, a member might be put on probation for a short time. In the later case, the member might be asked by the bishop not to partake of the sacrament to renew his covenants until he has fully repented of a specific sin. You might also be limited in your ability to exercise your priesthood. Socially and emotionally it would be different with each person. Guilt is probably the most common feeling when someone breaks a covenant. If someone breaks a covenant they have made to be charitable, it may result in the loss of a friend or damage a relationship.

I may return to this.

I guess I'm not sure exactly what you're asking on this one.

You're giving me exactly what I asked for.

Luckily, repentance is possible through the atonement of Jesus Christ. Even if we break a covenant we have made, we can always turn back.

Do you still get the blessing?

I wonder, does the bishop choose your covanent and blessing, or does the layperson make it up?

 

[jonny]

Ok. If the covanent breaking can keep one out of the Celestial Kingdom, can not making a covanent have the same effect? If so, it seems compulsary.

Sorry I wasn't clear on this. The covenants are compulsory if you want the blessings. If you don't want the blessings, you are not forced into these covenants.

Do you still get the blessing?

Yes, if you completely repent of a transgression you are completely forgiven through the atonement.

I wonder, does the bishop choose your covanent and blessing, or does the layperson make it up?

All covenants are standardized through revelation by the church. Ceremonies where covenants are made must be said exactly the same every time. For instance, when someone is baptized, the priest always states, "Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen." The sacrament prayers are always the same. The endowment is always the same. The temple ceremony is always the same. The blessings associated with all of these ceremonies are also always the same. It is required that these ceremonies be repeated EXACTLY as they were revealed. Any deviation from the wording results in the ceremony being performed again. For example, if the sacrament prayers are not repeated exactly are they are written, the priest must perform the ceremony again. Does that answer your question?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Sorry I wasn't clear on this.

No worries.

The covenants are compulsory if you want the blessings. If you don't want the blessings, you are not forced into these covenants.

Who in their right mind wouldn't want the blessings?

Yes, if you completely repent of a transgression you are completely forgiven through the atonement.

This is sufficient. Thanks.

All covenants are standardized through revelation by the church. Ceremonies where covenants are made must be said exactly the same every time. For instance, when someone is baptized, the priest always states, "Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen." The sacrament prayers are always the same. The endowment is always the same. The temple ceremony is always the same. The blessings associated with all of these ceremonies are also always the same. It is required that these ceremonies be repeated EXACTLY as they were revealed. Any deviation from the wording results in the ceremony being performed again. For example, if the sacrament prayers are not repeated exactly are they are written, the priest must perform the ceremony again. Does that answer your question?

I'm not sure. Are all the current covanents and blessings public and available for review in the Doctrine and Covanents?

 

[jonny]

No worries.

Who in their right mind wouldn't want the blessings?

This is sufficient. Thanks.

I'm not sure. Are all the current covanents and blessings public and available for review in the Doctrine and Covanents?

Some of them are. The temple ones are not.

Baptism
D&C 20:73 - Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.

Sacrament
D&C 20:77 - O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it, that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him and keep his ccommandments which he has given them; that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.
D&C 20:79 - O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this [water] to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

Since we are renewing our baptismal covenants when we partake of the sacrament, the blessings and covenants are the same. The covenants is that we are willing to take the name of Jesus Christ upon ourselves, that we will always remember Christ, and that we will keep his commandments. The blessing is that we will always have his spirit to be with us.

Priesthood
The Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood is found in D&C 84:33-42 - http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/84/

There isn't a set ceremony for giving someone the priesthood, but there is exact wording that is used. The priesthood is conferred upon someone and then they are ordained to an office in that priesthood. This wording is found in the Joseph Smith-History 1:69-70,72 when Joseph Smith was given the Aaronic Priesthood by Aaron.

I actually need to get ready because I am going to the temple tonight, but I will address the other covenants later today.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I actually need to get ready because I am going to the temple tonight, but I will address the other covenants later today.

Thanks.:162:

 

[jonny]

I have a second before I have to head out, so I'll give a little more info on the priesthood. By accepting the priesthood, we accept the Oath and Covenant of the priesthood. There are two priesthoods in the LDS church. The Aaronic and the Melchezedek. You receive both priesthoods the same way - the laying on of hands. Someone with authority will place their hands on your head. If you are receiving the Aaronic Priesthood of Melchezedek Priesthood they will first confer this priesthood upon you. They will then ordain you to the office of deacon, teacher, priest, elder, high priest, seventy, patriarch, bishop, apostle, etc. If you already have had the priesthood conferred upon you and you are receiving a new office, you will simply be ordained to that office. You are then given a blessing through inspiriation. This blessing is not necessarily connected with the Oath and Covenant of the priesthood. Rather, it is council from the Lord.

While the exact wording for the other ordinances is not in the scriptures, the covenants and blessings are. I will post more about these later on.

 

[jonny]

Alright, now for a couple other covenants.

I already gave you a quote from a general authority that mentioned some of the covenants made in the temple. You may be interested in reading the book The House of the Lord by James Talmage. Here is the quote again with the paragraph that follows:

The ordinances of the endowment embody certain obligations on the part of the individual, such as covenant and promise to observe the law of strict virtue and chastity; to be charitable, benevolent, tolerant and pure; to devote both talent and material means to the spread of truth and the uplifting of the race; to maintain devotion to the cause of truth; and to seek in every way to contribute to the great preparation that the earth may be made ready to receive her King, the Lord Jesus Christ. With the taking of each covenant and the assuming of each obligation a promised blessing is pronounced, contingent upon the faithful observance of the conditions.

No jot, iota, or tittle of the temple rites is otherwise than uplifting and sanctifying. In every detail the endowment cere mony contributes to covenants of morality of life, consecration of person to high ideals, devotion to truth, patriotism to nation, and allegiance to God. The blessings of the House of the Lord are restricted to no privileged class; every member of the Church may have admission to the temple with the right to participate in the ordinances thereof, if he comes duly accredited as of worthy life and conduct.

Finally, the marriage covenant is often referred to as the new and everlasting covenant. Information on this is found in D&C 132. I won't copy all the verses (I assume you know where you can get a hold of the D&C if you want to read it all), but here is the summation. Joseph Fielding Smith, one of our prophets, stated that the new and everlasting covenant is the sum total of all gospel obligations and covenants. It is everything—the fulness of the gospel. So marriage properly performed, baptism, ordination to the priesthood, everything else—every contract, every obligation, every performance that pertains to the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise according to his law here given, is a part of the new and everlasting covenant.

The promise or blessing related to this new and everlasting covenant is found in the section of the D&C I mentioned above. It is that we will come forth in the first resurrection and inherit kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths. This is the blessing we refer to when we discuss becoming like God. We are also promised that our family will be together eternally. These are the blessings we receive when we keep all the covenants we make in the temple.

I hope that provides you with enough information to understand the covenants that LDS members make. I don't see any as contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but that is because I see him as the source of ultimate blessing of all these covenants.

 

[jonny]

The covenants are compulsory if you want the blessings. If you don't want the blessings, you are not forced into these covenants.

Who in their right mind wouldn't want the blessings?

Wonderful question. I assume that most people would probably want these blessings, but there are very few who have made the covenants necessary to receive them. It's probably because they don't believe that these are blessings that God has actually promised us. You would probably understand why that is the case better than I ever would. For many people, the plan of God results in us being in heaven with God. The purpose of being there is a mystery. Mormons take the phrase be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect literally. I suppose that others believe is it more figurative than literal.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

every contract, every obligation, every performance that pertains to the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise according to his law here given, is a part of the new and everlasting covenant.

This is the blessing we refer to when we discuss becoming like God.

I hope that provides you with enough information to understand the covenants that LDS members make. I don't see any as contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but that is because I see him as the source of ultimate blessing of all these covenants.

I greatly appreciate your patience with me. I still don't think that I have enough information. I don't think that I can access all the covanents and blessings, and it does appear to me that one is pressured into making/keeping a covanent that can bring great harm to the person, but that is a conclusion based off of only what I do know, and I don't know everything yet. I have simply been assured that everything that the Mormon church does is edifying and uplifting, but I simply don't have enough evidence to confirm or deny these claims.

 

[jonny]

I greatly appreciate your patience with me. I still don't think that I have enough information. I don't think that I can access all the covanents and blessings, and it does appear to me that one is pressured into making/keeping a covanent that can bring great harm to the person, but that is a conclusion based off of only what I do know, and I don't know everything yet. I have simply been assured that everything that the Mormon church does is edifying and uplifting, but I simply don't have enough evidence to confirm or deny these claims.

What great harm can be brought to a person in regards to these covenants? Are you speaking in regards of eternal consequences or something temporal?

Regading being pressured into making or keeping a covenant, I personally have never felt pressured into doing so. I wouldn't deny that there is someone out there who has, but I have eagerly entered into every covenant I have ever made.

What further evidence are you looking for?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

What great harm can be brought to a person in regards to these covenants? Are you speaking in regards of eternal consequences or something temporal?

Are there consequences or not for not making/breaking covanents. See above: emotional/spiritual consequences temporally and loss of assurance for entering the Celestial Kingdom.

Regading being pressured into making or keeping a covenant, I personally have never felt pressured into doing so. I wouldn't deny that there is someone out there who has, but I have eagerly entered into every covenant I have ever made.

I'm glad that you've never personally felt pressured, but as an outsider looking in, I can't see how this is possible. If a covanent is the only way to receive a blessing, and keeping it is the only assurance, it definately looks compulsary. If you really truly believe that the blessing is true and the covanent is the best thing for you, I can see how you eagerly did it. Just because something is compulsary does not mean that some people are eager to comply.

What about the people who want the higher blessings, are convinced that the covanents are the only way to get the blessing, but don't want to make the covanent? They want the blessing, so they do it anyway, perhaps only to break it later, suffering the spiritual/emotive/social consequences.

What further evidence are you looking for?

Evidence that can prove me wrong in my thinking as I have outlined it above.

 

[jonny]

Before I continue, I need to make sure I am making the right assuptions about your beliefs. Do you believe there are consequences for not accepting and living the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Do you personally believe in Hell? Or do you believe that everyone who has ever lived will be saved by Jesus Christ, regardless of their faith?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Before I continue, I need to make sure I am making the right assuptions about your beliefs.

Thank you.

Do you believe there are consequences for not accepting and living the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

Yes. If one confesses and truly believes, then one can live according to God's truth, which is the best thing for a person. I do think that God makes his truth available to all who seek Him according to His grace, so I can only say that the consequence of not believing in Jesus Christ is lack of assurance. That is, one is not assured that they are in the truth if they don't confess Christ, but that does not mean that God does not have grace on such a person. The Eastern confession is useful here, "I know where God is, but I do not know where He is not."

I can draw a very sharp distinction between faith in God and making a covanent with God if you don't see one.

Do you personally believe in Hell?

Yes. I am still working out my views, but for now I believe that everyone will be judged according to their works, and some will be destroyed. Those who will be saved will be saved by God's grace alone. Those who have faith in Jesus Christ have some assurance, but simply confessing Christ is not a one-way ticket to heaven.

Or do you believe that everyone who has ever lived will be saved by Jesus Christ, regardless of their faith?

This statement is closer to what I believe. Everyone who lives by faith will be saved by Jesus Christ according to God's righteous judgement. I do believe that some will be destroyed.