Christians Only: The Case Against Hell

[LoveNeverFails]

From The case against Hell « The Religious Stuff..& all things are possible except skiing through a revolving door ...

Did you know that there is a solid scriptural case to be made against the idea of Hell? Many non-Christians have rejected the concept of Hell, but it may come as a surprise to learn that there is a growing number of Bible-believing Christians who also reject the notion—not in spite of Scripture but because of it!

An open and unbiased study of the Bible, including many key Greek and Hebrew words as well as Church history will reveal some surprising things.

“Hell” Is Not an Old Testament doctrine:

Popular myth : Hell is an established Biblical doctrine that is in the Bible from start to finish. This is not true! Two thirds of the Bible (the Old Testament) does not mention Hell at all. (“Sheol,” the Old Testament word that is sometimes translated as Hell, only means “grave” by definition, and it is where everyone in the Old Testament went when they died–good or evil, Jew or Gentile). Thus the Old Testament does not contain the concept of Hell!

If Hell is real, why are its roots in paganism, rather than the Bible? Many nations surrounding Israel in the Old Testament believed in Hell-like punishment in the afterlife, for they served bloodthirsty and evil “gods,” while Israel simply taught the grave (sheol) and a hope of a resurrection. If Hell is real, why was the revelation of it first given to pagan nations, instead of God’s covenant people? Did God expect Israel to learn about the afterlife from the Pagan Gentiles? If so, why did He repeatedly warn Israel to not learn of their ways?​

If Hell is real, why did God tell the Jews that burning their children alive in the fire to the false god Molech, (in the valley of Gehenna ) was so detestable to Him? God said that such a thing “never even entered His mind” (Jer. 32:35). How could God say such a thing to Israel , if He has plans to burn alive a good majority of His own creation in a spiritual and eternal Gehenna of His own making?
​

**FACT: The King James Bible erroneously translates the word “Sheol” as Hell a total of 31 times in the Old Testament, thus setting a foundation for that doctrine in the New Testament as well as the majority of Bible translations to follow the KJV. Even so, most new translations have completely eliminated Hell from the Old Testament, as honest and better scholarship has demanded. The Jewish version of the Old Testament (the Tanakh) has no concept of Hell in it. The importance of this fact cannot be over-emphasized. If a doctrine does not appear as seed form in the books of the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms, it cannot fairly be taught as a major biblical doctrine, if indeed it can be taught as biblical at all! ​

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Hell Is Not a New Testament Doctrine:

Popular myth: Jesus spoke of Hell more than He did of Heaven. This is not true! Jesus warned the Jews many times of impending destruction, both nationally and individually. He used several different terms to refer to punishment/destruction, some of which were erroneously translated as the same word, “Hell” by Bible translators. We do not deny that God will indeed judge the whole world, nor do we wish to make light of His judgments. We are challenging the belief that His judgment on sin and unbelief is eternal torment/Hell and never-ending separation from God. Certainly, Jesus spent a lot of his ministry warning people to repent or reap the consequences, (particularly “Gehenna.”) But could we be reading more into His warnings than He originally intended? ​

Since the concept of Hell doesn’t exist in the Old Testament, how could Jesus and his disciples teach that salvation was deliverance from a place that is not even found in their Scriptures? And if He was introducing the subject for the first time, why did He do it so casually, as though His listeners already understood what He was talking about?​

If Hell is real, since some English translations use the word Hell for the Greek word “Gehenna,” in the New Testament, why didn’t this same place (Gehenna) get translated Hell in the many places where it appears in the Hebrew form “ga ben Hinnom” in the Old Testament?​

If the Jews did not understand “Gehenna” as a symbol of everlasting torture, but rather as a place of shame, filth, and defilement (where Israel participated in the grossest form of idol worship), why does modern theology ascribe more to the word than the original meaning did? The teaching of Gehenna has evolved in Jewish teachings to include punishment in the afterlife; but even today, Gehenna still does not mean “endless” punishment to the Jews.​

FACT: The apocryphal books of the intertestimental period had a tremendous impact on the Jews in the time of Christ. It is from these books, especially the book of Enoch, that many of the Jewish myths and fables concerning Hell, heaven, demons and angels and many other fables first became a part of Judaism and from there became a part of Christianity. The myths and fables of these books came from Pagan influences (namely Zoroastrianism), during and after the Babylonian captivity of Israel . In fact, Zoroastrianism looks more like modern Christianity in many ways than ancient Judiasm does! ​

If Hell is real, why did Paul warn Timothy repeatedly to stay away from Jewish myths and fables, the likes of which were influencing many in the early church? Rather than affirming such doctrines, Paul declares them to be profane fables. (1 Tim. 1:1; Tit. 1:14)

Additionally, hell was not an early church doctrine...but I digress for now!

Any thoughts?​

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[Booko]

FACT: The apocryphal books of the intertestimental period had a tremendous impact on the Jews in the time of Christ. It is from these books, especially the book of Enoch, that many of the Jewish myths and fables concerning Hell, heaven, demons and angels and many other fables first became a part of Judaism and from there became a part of Christianity. The myths and fables of these books came from Pagan influences (namely Zoroastrianism), during and after the Babylonian captivity of Israel . In fact, Zoroastrianism looks more like modern Christianity in many ways than ancient Judiasm does!

a. Zoroastrianism is not considered a pagan religion. You may wish to research this further. Even Wikipedia would tell you as much, flawed as that source can be.

b. If you think the Zoroastrian view of the afterlife and a common Christian one you mention are similar, you should check out the similarities between those two faiths on the subject of that great battle of the end times commonly referred to as Armageddon.

 

[MaddLlama]

I also firmly disagree that the Babylonian, Sumerian and Egyptian Gods are either "bloodthirsty" or "evil". I'm also not entirely sure that any of the surrounding "pagan" religions believed in an afterlife that bears any similarity to the Christian Hell or Heaven.
Can you provide any evidence for these two parts of your OP?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

First let's get some definitions straight; are you refereing to hell as the place reserved for the devil and his minions or the Lake of Fire, the eternal place of damnation to which hell will be cast into?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

As I do not believe in Hell I am happy with your explanation...
however I do not know If your translations are exact... but it sounds as if they should be so.
Do not expect Calvinists to agree.

 

[LoveNeverFails]

Okay! To clarify...

Zoroastrianism is not considered a pagan religion.

Agreed. Many Christians (inluding the writer of this link evidently) use the word pagan to describe anything outside of the Christian faith at times.

I also firmly disagree that the Babylonian, Sumerian and Egyptian Gods are either "bloodthirsty" or "evil".

These were not specifically mentioned.

I'm also not entirely sure that any of the surrounding "pagan" religions believed in an afterlife that bears any similarity to the Christian Hell or Heaven.

Well, for one example, the ancient Greeks believed in Hades, which was used throughout the original Greek Biblical texts because the meaning was so simular to the Jewish one. The word Hell itself is from Norse mythology.

From Hell in Christian beliefs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Concerning the "hell-fire", some scholars speculated that the idea came from the fire consecrated to some Pagan deities like Adramelech, Moloch, etc., to whom children were sacrificed by throwing them into the flames; but other scholars, more recently, speculated that, since Hell is considered an underground place, fire was associated with volcanic eruptions; the idea that volcanoes could be gateways to Hell was present in the mind of the ancient Romans, and later of Icelanders and other European peoples.

First let's get some definitions straight; are you refereing to hell as the place reserved for the devil and his minions or the Lake of Fire, the eternal place of damnation to which hell will be cast into?

Well, if hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire, and eternity stretches on from there, then pretty much it's the same thing isn't it?

I believe that Hell will be emptied. I believe the Lake of Fire, according to the original Greek words used to describe it, is actually a Harbor or Haven of Divine Purification. The hell-fire is literally the power of God--the Refiner's Fire. He will purify all humankind. As for Satan, I'm not sure...some verses seem to say he'll be there forever...but I think it's all vague when you study it out in the original languages. I think it would bring more glory to the power and goodness of God to be able to redeem even Satan!

As I do not believe in Hell I am happy with your explanation...
however I do not know If your translations are exact... but it sounds as if they should be so. Do not expect Calvinists to agree.

They are pretty close. Because I believe the Bible to be divinely inspired, it is clear that there is some form of reformative "hell"...but it is NOT literal fire and torture.

And I pity Calvinists. Their concept of love and forgiveness can only mimic their beliefs--and they believe in a sadistic, cruel God who pre-ordained billions of souls to eternal agony.

 

[MaddLlama]

These were not specifically mentioned.

Those are the Pagans cultures that surrounded the Jews at the time their religion was supposedly being developed.

You said:

Many nations surrounding Israel in the Old Testament believed in Hell-like punishment in the afterlife, for they served bloodthirsty and evil “gods,” while Israel simply taught the grave (sheol) and a hope of a resurrection. If Hell is real, why was the revelation of it first given to pagan nations, instead of God’s covenant people? Did God expect Israel to learn about the afterlife from the Pagan Gentiles? If so, why did He repeatedly warn Israel to not learn of their ways?

This is specifically talking about the Isrealites and the surrounding cultures (which would be the ones I mentioned), and not the Greeks or the Romans, who had no contact with the OT Jews. And, I still disagree that those Gods of the surrounding cultures were evil or bloodthirsty (at least, no more violent than the God described in the OT)

Well, for one example, the ancient Greeks believed in Hades, which was used throughout the original Greek Biblical texts because the meaning was so simular to the Jewish one. The word Hell itself is from Norse mythology.

Hades is the Underworld, not a place of punishment, neither was the Norse Hel a place of punishment. No Pagan faiths that I am aware of have any hints of a lake of fire where its inhabitants would be punished and burned for eternity. The Greeks believes in Tartarus, and that was a place of punishment, but it bears no similarity to popular concept of hell.

Is there any actual evidence (not speculation or theory) that any Pagan cultures believed in a burning lake of fire as an eternal punishment in the afterlife? Even the speculation about Phonecian beliefs is a huge stretch.

 

[Katzpur]

From The case against Hell « The Religious Stuff..& all things are possible except skiing through a revolving door ...

Did you know that there is a solid scriptural case to be made against the idea of Hell? Many non-Christians have rejected the concept of Hell, but it may come as a surprise to learn that there is a growing number of Bible-believing Christians who also reject the notion—not in spite of Scripture but because of it!

Additionally, hell was not an early church doctrine...but I digress for now!

Any thoughts?​

I'm a Bible-believing Christian (there are some who whill take issue with that statement) who believes pretty much what you've said. My Church's doctrines probably couldn't be described as 100% universalist, but they are pretty darned close. We believe that eternal separation from God is something that will affect a diminutive number of people who have ever lived. The Bible does speak of the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost and describes it as an unforgivable sin. Properly understood, though, this sin is one that very few people are even in a position to be able to commit since it requires a person to have a degree of knowledge that far, far exceeds that which most of us will ever have.

 

[LoveNeverFails]

Those are the Pagans cultures that surrounded the Jews at the time their religion was supposedly being developed.

You said:

This is specifically talking about the Isrealites and the surrounding cultures (which would be the ones I mentioned), and not the Greeks or the Romans, who had no contact with the OT Jews. And, I still disagree that those Gods of the surrounding cultures were evil or bloodthirsty (at least, no more violent than the God described in the OT)

Did you read the links on Molech? Very bloodthirsty I would say.

What I meant by that is hell as a place of concious torment, not necessarily as hellfire, although different aspects of such beliefs can be found. Yes, that was found in the cultures surrounding theirs.

As one example, in Egypt, Osiris, the king of the dead and forty-two demon assistants, judged the soul, or ka. If the ka was condemned, it spent eternity in hunger and thirst or it was torn to pieces by executioners.

Hades is the Underworld, not a place of punishment, neither was the Norse Hel a place of punishment. No Pagan faiths that I am aware of have any hints of a lake of fire where its inhabitants would be punished and burned for eternity. The Greeks believes in Tartarus, and that was a place of punishment, but it bears no similarity to popular concept of hell.

I think perhaps we have a misunderstanding, and I apologize. Yes, I know it was not a place of concious torment. However it was recognized to be a place where all souls went after death, just as the Jews believed in Sheol in the same fashion.

My point is to point out how traditional Christians don't realize that hell as they so dogmatically believe it to be is a mish-mash of all sorts of ancient and more modern concepts of the afterlife, from both the lands surrounding Israel and from Europe as well. I don't wish to get this thread hung up on symantics regarding what is pagan or derailed in any other fashion.

Is there any actual evidence (not speculation or theory) that any Pagan cultures believed in a burning lake of fire as an eternal punishment in the afterlife? Even the speculation about Phonecian beliefs is a huge stretch.

Again we have a misunderstanding (I think). Again, to clarify, there were beliefs of concious torment in the afterlife, and THAT is what is simular IMO.

 

[LoveNeverFails]

I'm a Bible-believing Christian (there are some who whill take issue with that statement) who believes pretty much what you've said. My Church's doctrines probably couldn't be described as 100% universalist, but they are pretty darned close. We believe that eternal separation from God is something that will affect a diminutive number of people who have ever lived. The Bible does speak of the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost and describes it as an unforgivable sin. Properly understood, though, this sin is one that very few people are even in a position to be able to commit since it requires a person to have a degree of knowledge that far, far exceeds that which most of us will ever have.

I am also a Bible believing Christian, although I think the Bible has been grossly mistranslated in some areas obviously. I also think it is possible some may not choose God, but only from a purely philosophical perspective...my faith in God is such that I believe that ultimately, none will be able to resist Him! :angel2:

 

[Sunstone]

Heaven and Hell are just metaphors for Enlightened and Unenlightened awareness.

 

[LoveNeverFails]

Heaven and Hell are just metaphors for Enlightened and Unenlightened awareness.

They are both metaphor and literal.

 

[Sunstone]

They are both metaphor and literal.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I don't think there's any evidence for a literal existence of Heaven or Hell.

 

[MaddLlama]

Did you read the links on Molech? Very bloodthirsty I would say.

What I meant by that is hell as a place of concious torment, not necessarily as hellfire, although different aspects of such beliefs can be found. Yes, that was found in the cultures surrounding theirs.

As one example, in Egypt, Osiris, the king of the dead and forty-two demon assistants, judged the soul, or ka. If the ka was condemned, it spent eternity in hunger and thirst or it was torn to pieces by executioners.



I think perhaps we have a misunderstanding, and I apologize. Yes, I know it was not a place of concious torment. However it was recognized to be a place where all souls went after death, just as the Jews believed in Sheol in the same fashion.

My point is to point out how traditional Christians don't realize that hell as they so dogmatically believe it to be is a mish-mash of all sorts of ancient and more modern concepts of the afterlife, from both the lands surrounding Israel and from Europe as well. I don't wish to get this thread hung up on symantics regarding what is pagan or derailed in any other fashion.



Again we have a misunderstanding (I think). Again, to clarify, there were beliefs of concious torment in the afterlife, and THAT is what is simular IMO.

Most religions have such examples of violence. I object to the attitude of the OP that basically says "Christianity = good and love, Paganism=violence, evil and bloodlust" and I definitely object to that dichotomy.

 

[LoveNeverFails]

Most religions have such examples of violence. I object to the attitude of the OP that basically says "Christianity = good and love, Paganism=violence, evil and bloodlust" and I definitely object to that dichotomy.

I apologize for the misunderstanding, as that was not my intent. I don't see why this must be bent to such a slant and not kept on topic. I would like to dicuss with others of the same faith, as that is where I posted this thread, as to why they agree or disagree with the claims I have made regarding the basis for the Christian belief in hell.

However, you I think are still not acknowledging the fact that some of the "pagan" (as referred to by some) nations surrounding them did in fact have some very bloody and evil practices in their religions. THAT is what I am referring to, not paganism as it's defined today, wiccanism, or whatever else. Simply the religious practices--some of which WERE barbaric--found in the cultures surrounding the Ancient Israelites during the period in question.

 

[Katzpur]

I don't think there's any evidence for a literal existence of Heaven or Hell.

Uh... just curious. What exactly would you consider "evidence," Phil?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Heaven and Hell are just metaphors for Enlightened and Unenlightened awareness.

Your view of heaven and hell,both being scriptural concepts, is not in line with scripture but seems to be your opinion.

 

[LoveNeverFails]

Your view of heaven and hell,both being scriptural concepts, is not in line with scripture but seems to be your opinion.

Well said!:bow:

 

[Darkness]

Simply the religious practices--some of which WERE barbaric--found in the cultures surrounding the Ancient Israelites during the period in question.

Slaughtering entire villages, stoning girls for premarital sex, sacrificing countless animals, I would say Israel was a part of the Barbaric cultures.

 

[joeboonda]

Well, I believe there is a literal place called Hell, whatever folks may say.