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sojourner said:Jesus established the ecclesia -- the Church -- the people that make up the Body of Christ.
Jesus did not establish a religion.
angellous_evangellous said:You're speaking in Christianese.
Victor said:All I know is that everybody in heaven will be Catholic...
To me the Church of Christ is not a sorta of subjective unidentified group of believers. The Church of Chirst isn't just a church amongst many, but rather it is the Church of Christ, literally. It is identifiable, tangible, subjective, objective, and spiritual all in One. But it is certainly not just a collection of unidentified belivers that may or may not be like-minded.
~Victor
sojourner said:We are like-minded, in that we believe in Jesus as savior, and in that we understand ourselves to be the Body of Christ. I agree that we are all the Church of Christ, and we are catholic (small"c").
Victor said:For the sake of conversation and clarification, if I believed in Jesus as Savior and in us being the Body of Christ and yet believed rape is ok, would I be in the Church?
I'm rather comfortable noting that your answer is NO. But my point was to show that once you get into details that it may discard someone from being in the Church. Do you disagree?
~Victor
I think of Christ as repairing a broken relationship as NetDoc talks about and I prefer to think of the body of Christians as the "Bride of Christ". "Husbands love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless." Eph 5:25-27lunamoth said:...or a Church?
And what is the difference?
Victor said:For the sake of conversation and clarification, if I believed in Jesus as Savior and in us being the Body of Christ and yet believed rape is ok, would I be in the Church?
I'm rather comfortable noting that your answer is NO. But my point was to show that once you get into details that it may discard someone from being in the Church. Do you disagree?
~Victor
Brilliant reminders Pete, thank you. (Apologies for snipping them down--just to save space and to highligh a few of my favorites.)NetDoc said:Luke 19:9 Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost." NIV
John 10:10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. NIV
John 12:44 Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45 When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. 46 I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness. NIV
Yes. This is how I see it too.The church is important... but that's NOT why Jesus came. It IS the tool that continues the same job at a different level today:
Rock-steady, rock-steady... (borrowed from Sting).So... how's your faith in what Jesus came to do?
NetDoc said:Jesus didn't "COME" to establish a church... but don't listen to me on this. I have it straight from Jesus' mouth...
Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." NIV
I believe He did. He established a Church and built it on a foundation of prophets and apostles. He was its chief cornerstone. I personally see a relatively fine line between the words "church" and "religion," but if pressed to describe that difference, I would say that a "religion" encompasses the doctrines held by a like-minded group of individuals, and that a "church" is the organizational structure that exists for the purpose of maintaining those doctrines in their pure form.lunamoth said:...or a Church?
And what is the difference?
Katzpur said:I believe He did. He established a Church and built it on a foundation of prophets and apostles. He was its chief cornerstone. I personally see a relatively fine line between the words "church" and "religion," but if pressed to describe that difference, I would say that a "religion" encompasses the doctrines held by a like-minded group of individuals, and that a "church" is the organizational structure that exists for the purpose of maintaining those doctrines in their pure form.
21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
22Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!" 23Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."
15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,[b] the Son of the living God." 17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter,[c] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[d] will not overcome it.[e] 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[f] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[g] loosed in heaven." 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.
Jesus' teachings were FAR MORE RADICAL than Paul's... which is why he said he CAME to divide us.GoldenDragon said:Is there anywhere in the New Testament does Jesus hint to break from Judaism and create a new religion/church?