Christians only: Did Christ found a religion...

[lunamoth]

...or a Church?

And what is the difference?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Excellent question.

I don't see how Christ could understand himself to be founding a religion or Church outside of Judaism. It seems to me that the Church was initially completely within Judasim - sort of like a splinter that the body eventually pushed out. Perhaps Jesus was the splinter and Paul was the infection.

 

[Scuba Pete]

He came to repair a severed relationship.

 

[sojourner]

Jesus established the ecclesia -- the Church -- the people that make up the Body of Christ.

Jesus did not establish a religion.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Jesus established the ecclesia -- the Church -- the people that make up the Body of Christ.

Jesus did not establish a religion.

You're speaking in Christianese.

 

[sojourner]

You're speaking in Christianese.

I've taken the Berlitz Christianese on CD course.riest:

 

[Quiddity]

All I know is that everybody in heaven will be Catholic...

To me the Church of Christ is not a sorta of subjective unidentified group of believers. The Church of Chirst isn't just a church amongst many, but rather it is the Church of Christ, literally. It is identifiable, tangible, subjective, objective, and spiritual all in One. But it is certainly not just a collection of unidentified belivers that may or may not be like-minded.

~Victor

 

[sojourner]

All I know is that everybody in heaven will be Catholic...

To me the Church of Christ is not a sorta of subjective unidentified group of believers. The Church of Chirst isn't just a church amongst many, but rather it is the Church of Christ, literally. It is identifiable, tangible, subjective, objective, and spiritual all in One. But it is certainly not just a collection of unidentified belivers that may or may not be like-minded.

~Victor

We are like-minded, in that we believe in Jesus as savior, and in that we understand ourselves to be the Body of Christ. I agree that we are all the Church of Christ, and we are catholic (small"c").

 

[lunamoth]

So far I'm getting the consensus that Christ did not come to establish a religion, but His Church, which is a different thing.

Ialso caught the idea from AE that Paul had a large role in starting the religion, which I agree with. Interesting that Peter was the rock and told to feed Christ's sheep, which in turn became the ecclsia, and Paul so clearly worked to build the original community, as that is what I see in a lot of his writings.

I like NetDoc's take on it, that He came to repair our relationship with God.

 

[Quiddity]

We are like-minded, in that we believe in Jesus as savior, and in that we understand ourselves to be the Body of Christ. I agree that we are all the Church of Christ, and we are catholic (small"c").

For the sake of conversation and clarification, if I believed in Jesus as Savior and in us being the Body of Christ and yet believed rape is ok, would I be in the Church?

I'm rather comfortable noting that your answer is NO. But my point was to show that once you get into details that it may discard someone from being in the Church. Do you disagree?

~Victor

 

[angellous_evangellous]

For the sake of conversation and clarification, if I believed in Jesus as Savior and in us being the Body of Christ and yet believed rape is ok, would I be in the Church?


I'm rather comfortable noting that your answer is NO. But my point was to show that once you get into details that it may discard someone from being in the Church. Do you disagree?

~Victor

I dunno. If someone believes that rape is ok, they are probably mentally ill.

 

[Buttercup]

...or a Church?

And what is the difference?

I think of Christ as repairing a broken relationship as NetDoc talks about and I prefer to think of the body of Christians as the "Bride of Christ". "Husbands love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless." Eph 5:25-27

 

[Aqualung]

Of course he did. He said his church would be built upon that rock (wwhatever you understand that rock to be is up to you) and Paul confirmed that Christ's church was a true entity, made up of prophets, apostles, teachers, and the like.

 

[sojourner]

For the sake of conversation and clarification, if I believed in Jesus as Savior and in us being the Body of Christ and yet believed rape is ok, would I be in the Church?

I'm rather comfortable noting that your answer is NO. But my point was to show that once you get into details that it may discard someone from being in the Church. Do you disagree?

~Victor

To me, this question invokes the parable of the prodigal. We distance ourselves, at times, from God's family, both in terms of geography and morality. Yet, God remains steadfast in God's hope that we might return. When we do, God runs to meet us.

We are all always considered by God to be part of God's family. It's the obedient son who mistakenly grumbles about his prodigal brother's being welcome.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Jesus didn't "COME" to establish a church... but don't listen to me on this. I have it straight from Jesus' mouth...

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." NIV

Matthew 10:34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw—
36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.' NIV

Matthew 20:26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many NIV

Mark 1:38 Jesus replied, "Let us go somewhere else—to the nearby villages—so I can preach there also. That is why I have come." 39 So he traveled throughout Galilee, preaching in their synagogues and driving out demons. NIV

Mark 10:43 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 44 and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. 45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." NIV

Luke 12:49 "I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! 51 Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. NIV

Luke 19:9 Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost." NIV

John 5:41 "I do not accept praise from men, 42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43 I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44 How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God?" NIV

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." NIV

John 9:39 Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind."

40 Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, "What? Are we blind too?" 41 Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains. NIV

John 10:10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. NIV

John 12:44 Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45 When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. 46 I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness. NIV


The church is important... but that's NOT why Jesus came. It IS the tool that continues the same job at a different level today:

John 14:9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. NIV

So... how's your faith in what Jesus came to do?

 

[lunamoth]

Luke 19:9 Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost." NIV

John 10:10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. NIV

John 12:44 Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45 When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. 46 I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness. NIV

Brilliant reminders Pete, thank you. (Apologies for snipping them down--just to save space and to highligh a few of my favorites.)

The church is important... but that's NOT why Jesus came. It IS the tool that continues the same job at a different level today:

Yes. This is how I see it too.

So... how's your faith in what Jesus came to do?

Rock-steady, rock-steady... (borrowed from Sting).

luna

 

[GoldenDragon]

Jesus didn't "COME" to establish a church... but don't listen to me on this. I have it straight from Jesus' mouth...

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." NIV

I was looking for that quote too.I don't believe Jesus came to create a new religion or church or replace Judaism but as that quote says to fulfill the prophecy of the Torah and to improve the Judaism of his time. Is there anywhere in the New Testament does Jesus hint to break from Judaism and create a new religion/church? It seems that Paul's the one that started a new religion/church so I'm not sure. Anyone?

 

[Katzpur]

...or a Church?

And what is the difference?

I believe He did. He established a Church and built it on a foundation of prophets and apostles. He was its chief cornerstone. I personally see a relatively fine line between the words "church" and "religion," but if pressed to describe that difference, I would say that a "religion" encompasses the doctrines held by a like-minded group of individuals, and that a "church" is the organizational structure that exists for the purpose of maintaining those doctrines in their pure form.

 

[lunamoth]

I believe He did. He established a Church and built it on a foundation of prophets and apostles. He was its chief cornerstone. I personally see a relatively fine line between the words "church" and "religion," but if pressed to describe that difference, I would say that a "religion" encompasses the doctrines held by a like-minded group of individuals, and that a "church" is the organizational structure that exists for the purpose of maintaining those doctrines in their pure form.

Hi Katzpur, thank you for this viewpoint. Yes, the cornerstone. I'd forgotten about that for a moment. It certainly does suggest that Christ came to be the foundation for something. I guess I think of religion as well, just religion. The word we use for a way of doing things, way of believing. When a community of people all do and believe the same way then we have a church in the organizational sense. All the different denominations and flavors of the religion of Christianity are organized into different churches in this this sense. But the idea of the Church, as in the Catholic (Universal) Church I think takes on a different meaning, one that transcends human organizations. It is a metaphysical concept, the Bride of Christ, and I think it is much more than a particular organization of people.

It's an interesting thing, an extraordinary thing, that Christ did not really tell us how to set up His Church. He trusted Peter and all the rest to do something that would work, and He sent the Holy Spirit to guide us. Here's something I find fascinating about Peter:

21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
22Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!" 23Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

And also Peter denies Christ three times; he can't help himself! And this is the person who gets the keys to heaven.

15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"

16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,[b] the Son of the living God." 17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter,[c] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[d] will not overcome it.[e] 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[f] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[g] loosed in heaven." 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

Peter had faith.

Christ knew how fallible we are, but the good news it's not up to us to make sure we get everything perfect. The Spirit carries out Her work using our mistakes and error, and even our sinfulness.

Just some ramblings,
lunamoth

 

[Scuba Pete]

Is there anywhere in the New Testament does Jesus hint to break from Judaism and create a new religion/church?

Jesus' teachings were FAR MORE RADICAL than Paul's... which is why he said he CAME to divide us.

Real LOVE is radical.

Matthew 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.
25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
27 "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell. NIV

Here Jesus CLEARLY exceeded the "Law". This is LOVE with teeth in it.

John 13:34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." NIV

By new, he meant NOT LIKE THE OLD. Jesus finished the OLD LAW with it's myriads of laws and gave us just two.