Christians: If God Loves Us and Wants Us to Join Him in Heaven, Why Didn't He Put Us There?

[MSizer]

How does a drop of water remember it is an ocean?

--Some person

Sorry, I can't read minds. How is this supposed to answer my question?

 

[MSizer]

As a person who wants to be a doctor should you just be allowed to go out and practice medicine without first working, learning, studying and preparing yourself to achieve the ultimate goal....No matter if you stop off in Seattle you still haven't arrived at the destination until you persevere to reach your goal....

Yes but you're missing my point. To become a doctor I need to gain much information in order to be skilled enough to practice. God is supposedly all powerful and created us the way he wished us to be. Why waste time with this life? Why force us to earn it? Once in heaven, will there be a threat of being kicked out again? Why not? Probably because the "earthly rules" won't apply in heaven. So why have earth at all? Why not just jump right to heaven where nobody needs to earn their way in, nobody suffers hunger or victimization, and nobody ends up in hell? Why not just go right to that part?

 

[Charity]

Yes but you're missing my point. To become a doctor I need to gain much information in order to be skilled enough to practice. God is supposedly all powerful and created us the way he wished us to be. Why waste time with this life? Why force us to earn it? Once in heaven, will there be a threat of being kicked out again? Why not? Probably because the "earthly rules" won't apply in heaven. So why have earth at all? Why not just jump right to heaven where nobody needs to earn their way in, nobody suffers hunger or victimization, and nobody ends up in hell? Why not just go right to that part?

The point is that your growing and learning all along the way, your missing the point.
It's like runners working toward the big race. It's fun to see who will stick in there with the training and who will fall by the way. We are all given certain abilities it's up to us to use the abilities.
You don't think we all should be given something for nothing do you?
Are you going to crawl around and try to grab the leg of some runner who has run the race and let them try to drag you in? I don't think so, it don't work that way.

 

[MSizer]

The point is that your growing and learning all along the way, your missing the point.
It's like runners working toward the big race. It's fun to see who will stick in there with the training and who will fall by the way. We are all given certain abilities it's up to us to use the abilities.
You don't think we all should be given something for nothing do you?
Are you going to crawl around and try to grab the leg of some runner who has run the race and let them try to drag you in? I don't think so, it don't work that way.

I don't know how else to word it. You still don't understand the question. Thanks though, I do appreciate your answers.

 

[MSizer]

The point is that your growing and learning all along the way, your missing the point.
It's like runners working toward the big race. It's fun to see who will stick in there with the training and who will fall by the way. We are all given certain abilities it's up to us to use the abilities.
You don't think we all should be given something for nothing do you?
Are you going to crawl around and try to grab the leg of some runner who has run the race and let them try to drag you in? I don't think so, it don't work that way.

Charity, let me put it to you this way. Your view of me "wanting something for nothing" only bothers you because you're viewing it from the perspective as is of this earthly life. My point is that if god loves us, then why should anyone be excluded from heaven? Nowhere in the bible have I found any passage that says that god couldn't have created us any way he wanted. So why put us on earth, where not everybody lives a happy life in the first place? Why make us fallable? Why make us into sinners in the first place? What is the point.

Would you take one of your children aside and say "now I love you, and I want you as a part of our family, and as long as you can find your way back, you'll be welcome here. But, if you don't find your way back, then you're not welcome. Oh, I love you so much, I so hope you find your way back" and then kick him out? Without even the basic skills necessary to find his way back? That makes no sense. A good parent would protect the child from the start. And don't say that he did give us the tools to find our way. If you've ever lived wiht a person who suffers of psychosis or schizophrenia, you know darn well they don't have the tools. Therefore, my point is that god is a terrible parent. He didn't treat humans fairly at all.

 

[MSizer]

...It's fun to see who will stick in there with the training and who will fall by the way...

BTW, I find it very much uncharitable that you think it's fun to watch some people fall by the way side. What kind of morals make that justifiable? Do you stand at the finish line with Jesus and laugh at those who veer off in the wrong direction?

 

[Willamena]

Why didn't he just put us right in heaven from the beginning?

What makes you think he hasn't?

Are you familiar with the myth of the separation from the Garden?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

What makes you think he hasn't?

Are you familiar with the myth of the separation from the Garden?

Heaven ain't what it used to be.

 

[MSizer]

What makes you think he hasn't?

Catholic doctrine.

Are you familiar with the myth of the separation from the Garden?

No. I tried googling it but nothing came up excepte "the separation of church and state is a communist myth....blah blah blah." Not that I'm opposed to hearing about it, but I don't think it will apply to this tread though, as I have been clear that I'm challenging the catholic doctrine (and as it happens of a few other churches who happen to be in agreement with the catholic enterpretation of the matter).

 

[Willamena]

Catholic doctrine.



No. I tried googling it but nothing came up excepte "the separation of church and state is a communist myth....blah blah blah." Not that I'm opposed to hearing about it, but I don't think it will apply to this tread though, as I have been clear that I'm challenging the catholic doctrine (and as it happens of a few other churches who happen to be in agreement with the catholic enterpretation of the matter).

There was an interesting discussion on it a few years ago that you might enjoy reviewing.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/58582-garden-kingdom-2.html

Essentially, we are born into the Garden and are separated from it by our own ideas of "self". The firmer and more sure that idea is, the further from the Garden we stray.

I suspect "the Catholic doctrine" is only what each of us hear (you hear one version, and others hear another).

 

[Ringer]

While mental gymnastics can be fun, it ultimately boils down that I'm a finite human being trying to understand the ways of the infinite. I don't know why God decided to work things out the way things have been. I mean, couldn't a perfect being like God have found a way to prevent Jesus's death and still provide a way for salvation that traditional Christianity teaches? In my mind I think it would be possible, but I also think that when I die and I enter Heaven and have knowledge of what was impossible to fathom here on earth, maybe it will make perfect sense. I suppose that's why things like faith are central to the Christian life. One of the main themes in the Bible for me seems to be God saying, "Look...I know you don't understand my ways because they are not your ways, but trust me on this one and things will turn out OK for you in the end".

The other answer I have is that somehow in God's loving nature He found it better to have a creation that had the option of choosing to believe rather than being created to believe. This is why I believe the event in Eden is particularly powerful. We were in perfect harmony with God, nature, and each other. It was the wrong choice that threw everything out of wack and we've been dealing with those consequences ever since. Angels were created with the sole purpose of worshiping God. We were created with the choice. Of course, other's version and their understanding of Christianity may vary. This happens to be what I came to my head in the 4 minutes of pondering.

 

[MSizer]

While mental gymnastics can be fun, it ultimately boils down that I'm a finite human being trying to understand the ways of the infinite. I don't know why God decided to work things out the way things have been. I mean, couldn't a perfect being like God have found a way to prevent Jesus's death and still provide a way for salvation that traditional Christianity teaches? In my mind I think it would be possible, but I also think that when I die and I enter Heaven and have knowledge of what was impossible to fathom here on earth, maybe it will make perfect sense. I suppose that's why things like faith are central to the Christian life. One of the main themes in the Bible for me seems to be God saying, "Look...I know you don't understand my ways because they are not your ways, but trust me on this one and things will turn out OK for you in the end".

The other answer I have is that somehow in God's loving nature He found it better to have a creation that had the option of choosing to believe rather than being created to believe. This is why I believe the event in Eden is particularly powerful. We were in perfect harmony with God, nature, and each other. It was the wrong choice that threw everything out of wack and we've been dealing with those consequences ever since. Angels were created with the sole purpose of worshiping God. We were created with the choice. Of course, other's version and their understanding of Christianity may vary. This happens to be what I came to my head in the 4 minutes of pondering.

Thank you for a thought out answer. I don't find it convincing personally, and at the risk of being harsh, it seems to me an easy way out of a problem in the christian doctrine, but you do admit that faith is necessary to uphold it, so I credit you with a sensible answer. Thanks. (not that you need my validation of course!)

 

[Charity]

BTW, I find it very much uncharitable that you think it's fun to watch some people fall by the way side. What kind of morals make that justifiable? Do you stand at the finish line with Jesus and laugh at those who veer off in the wrong direction?

I don't think it's fun to watch people fall, I've done it myself, many times. I am only human and I don't always stay on the right road. I've taken many detours so to speak. When I make those mistakes, I get up try to get on the right road in the right direction.
I hope I cross the finish line, but I doubt that I will be looking back.

I would never make fun of anyone who falters or fails especially when it comes to Heaven. I would probably be your best cheerleader. Most everyone on this forum that knows me would tell you that I like to joke around and carry on with silly comments. I enjoy all the people no matter what belief they have and I would never laugh at anything I consider serious. Sorry you feel the way you do and that you have challenged my morals.....:sad4:

 

[emiliano]

I've never understood how god supposedly loves us and wants us to join him in his family in heaven, yet he put us on earth first with the capacity to fail, for which we could potentially loose the priviledge of joining him.

I doesn't make sense. Why didn't he just put us right in heaven from the beginning?

Well the reason that you can’t understand it is that you are an atheist and believe only what you can see, touch and God and His kingdom is spiritual, it is clearly stated in the Christian’s scriptures that one of God’s Characteristics is His absolute sovereignty “He has compassion in who He wants, we also know of His omniscience, it appear to me that that the reason is that not all are destined to that Kingdome, that because of our free will we can ignore his call and reject his offer due to unbelief, if doe not show this kingdom in a physical way and we can see, tough it we cannot believe but that is impossible to the Godless because they need to believe that the is a God to as help to, to Gives us the give of faith, the other is that atheist have not been call to faith yet for reason that then don’t understand, perhaps one day they will (although they tend to keep company with birds of the same feather)

 

[Katzpur]

Well, thanks Katzpur for actually answering the question. I don't buy it as an explanation, as it still is seems completely futile, since god could have just made us to appreciate him in the first place. It seems to me that it's as if you wanted you fence to be biege, so you painted it white and hoped that over time the white paint would become dull and eventually be beige. Why not just paint it beige? That would solve the problem right there. Every board would be beige, rather than risking having some which turn brown instead.

You've got a point. If God is omnipotent, as Christians believe Him to be, He could have done pretty much anything He wanted. But to continue on with my perspective...

We don't believe in an ex nihilo creation. We believe instead that God created our spirits from highly refined matter that was co-existent with Him. (Yes, I know that sounds it sounds like a contradition, to say that our spirits are created out of matter, but that's the topic for another discussion.) Some spirits were more like His than others. Lucifer's spirit was the epitome of evil while Jesus' spirit was perfect; it was in every way like His Father's. The rest of us fell somewhere in between. To us, it would have been pointless for God to have simply turned us into what He wanted us to become. He wanted us to have the opportunity to become what it was our potential to become. Just as steel is made strong by a refiner's fire, we could gain something beyond the ultimate goal by experiencing and overcoming challenges. In other words, the process itself was important and not even an omnipotent Higher Power could allow us to experience something while simultaneously denying us the opportunity to do so. Sure, He knew that some would succeed and some would fail, but all would have the opportunity to make their own choices. I don't know if that makes sense or not, but I thought I'd throw it out there as a point of view you probably hadn't heard of in the past. It's definitely a far cry from the Catholic perspective.

 

[cardero]

I'm not saying that the bible is of no more value than a comic book.

Is there a reason why comic books are being grossly misrepresented?

The short answer to the OP is that people who purport heaven as a reward probably have some misgivings or regrets about their own personal physical existences. The excuse that life is a “test” keeps the hope that there is some importance to the way they think and behave, that there is an attention or focus on them so that they could live up to the (goal) expectations of someone who they believes will care. As I see this physical existence, humans are here for a major purpose-to experience.

 

[Willamena]

Is there a reason why comic books are being grossly misrepresented?

Good catch.

 

[Bick]

I've never understood how god supposedly loves us and wants us to join him in his family in heaven, yet he put us on earth first with the capacity to fail, for which we could potentially loose the priviledge of joining him.

I doesn't make sense. Why didn't he just put us right in heaven from the beginning?

MY COMMENTS: I can only give my understanding.

Yes, I've thought something like that...why He didn't create us as robots to do exactly as programmed?

But, He didn't. We are made in His Image, after His likeness. We are rational, thinking, sensate beings, capable of making descisions, etc.

I believe before all this, God in love, knew that we could love Him the greatest after we, starting with Adam, fell into sin, missing the mark, and though, perhaps capable of seeking God, yet would not, for death was in us.

But God, who is our Saviour, sent His only Son to be the sacrifice for the sins of the world. And someday, all who believe will praise Him throughout the ages for His great love.

 

[Willamena]

Why didn't he just put us right in heaven from the beginning?

MY COMMENTS: I can only give my understanding.

Yes, I've thought something like that...why He didn't create us as robots to do exactly as programmed?

But, He didn't.

Are you suggesting that in Heaven we are robots programmed to do exactly as we must?

 

[cardero]

Bick writes: MY COMMENTS: I can only give my understanding.

Yes, I've thought something like that...why He didn't create us as robots to do exactly as programmed?

But the angels in heaven aren’t programmed like robots. The Bible purports that even the Devil rebelled so being (or staying) in heaven does not seem to have an automaton effect.

Bick writes: But, He didn't. We are made in His Image, after His likeness. We are rational, thinking, sensate beings, capable of making descisions, etc.

What does our appearance have to do with God creating and keeping us in heaven?

Bick writes: I believe before all this, God in love, knew that we could love Him the greatest after we, starting with Adam, fell into sin, missing the mark, and though, perhaps capable of seeking God, yet would not, for death was in us.

But God, who is our Saviour, sent His only Son to be the sacrifice for the sins of the world.

If we originated and existed in heaven we (and God) could have possibly avoided all this. Are you saying that humans dictate their will on God? Are you implying that God's actions are dependant on humans decisions?

There has to be some other reason why we are experiencing a physical existence and it doesn’t seem to point to any grandiose plan (or test) that God purposed for us.