• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Christians - How do you ‘watch and pray’ for Christ’s Return

Trailblazer

Veteran Member

Three dates were given when Jerusalem would get "trampled" underfoot by Gentiles. None of them add up to 1844.


Daniel 12:11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.​

When did the daily sacrifice get abolished and the abomination that causes desolation get set up according to the Baha'is?

Daniel 8:8
The goat became very great, but at the height of its power the large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven.
9 Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land.
10 It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them.
11 It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the LORD; it took away the daily sacrifice from the LORD, and his sanctuary was thrown down.
12 Because of rebellion, the LORD’s people and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.​

So there was first a ram, then this goat. But now, comes the 2,300 evening and morning prophecy. Shouldn't it start when the daily sacrifice and sanctuary get thrown down? Yet, Baha'is start it with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. How does that fit?

13
Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the LORD’s people?”
14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”
As you know, I do not get into interpretations of these kinds of prophecies. They are so ambiguous they could mean most anything. Besides, I do not need to try to figure them out because I already knew who Baha’u’llah was long before I ever read one page of the Bible.

Good luck with your analysis though. :)
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
As you know, I do not get into interpretations of these kinds of prophecies. They are so ambiguous they could mean most anything. Besides, I do not need to try to figure them out because I already knew who Baha’u’llah was long before I ever read one page of the Bible.

Good luck with your analysis though. :)
Only problem is I'm questioning the validity of how the Baha'is have made their calculations. You remember how in math class we had to show our work. Same thing, Baha'is need to show they did what they did to come up with the things they claim. But this math problem always starts with the Baha'i answer... 1844 and then works backwards from there. But, fear not, Christians have yet to step up to the plate and show how the Baha'is and William Miller aren't correct.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Only problem is I'm questioning the validity of how the Baha'is have made their calculations. You remember how in math class we had to show our work. Same thing, Baha'is need to show they did what they did to come up with the things they claim. But this math problem always starts with the Baha'i answer... 1844 and then works backwards from there. But, fear not, Christians have yet to step up to the plate and show how the Baha'is and William Miller aren't correct.
Good luck with that questioning.
I only matters what Baha'ullah did, not what the Baha'is do.

Baha'u'llah did not ever say that the prophecies being fulfilled are the proof of who He was because Baha'u'llah was smart... Having the knowledge of God and all He knew that humans would fight over the meaning and thus the fulfillment of prophecies till the cows came home. :rolleyes:

So instead of that Baha'u'llah gave prophecies of future events that people of future generations could use to prove the truth of His Claim.

Chapter 4

BAHA'I PROPHECIES: HISTORICAL EVENTS

A tempest, unprecedented in its violence, unpredictable in its course, catastrophic in its immediate effects, unimaginably glorious in its ultimate consequences, is at present sweeping the face of the earth... The powerful operations of this titanic upheaval are comprehensible to none except such as have recognized the claims of both Baha'u'llah and the Bab.

- Shoghi Effendi


The word 'prediction' means one thing in science, another in religion. When we study religion scientifically, it is important to distinguish between these meanings. In science, a prediction is any testable inference we draw from a hypothesis or theory. It may equally well describe a future event, a past observation or an ongoing process. In religion, a prediction generally is a prophecy - a glimpse of the future disclosed through the words of a prophet. Although the scientific and religious meanings may sometimes overlap, they are not identical.

Bearing this distinction in mind, let us consider a scientific prediction (testable inference from a hypothesis) involving religious predictions (prophecies): if Baha'u'llah truly was a Manifestation of God, then He should have been, able to foretell coming events. To someone omniscient at will and free from all error, the future must be an open book.

This practical consequence of the revelation-claim of Baha'u'llah is something we can test on the basis of observation, reason, intuition and credible authority. As with any good scientific deduction, we can search for evidence to disprove it. 'When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, ' says the Old Testament, 'if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken... '53 Note how completely this approach agrees with modern scientific method: the Bible does not suggest that a single correct prophecy (or even several such) would constitute 'proof of a Manifestation's claim. All it says is that a demonstrable inability to make such prophecies would discredit that claim. The obvious corollary, however, is that if someone claiming divine inspiration makes a great many specific, seemingly improbable, testable prophecies - prophecies whose non-fulfilment would undermine our confidence - and they invariably come true, then we can hardly fail to be impressed. Two equally reasonable people may differ as to how much any given prophecy bolsters such a claim or how many 'hits' should be required to sustain a positive verdict. At some point, however, We might well find it more reasonable to accept that claim than to go on reserving judgement.

Baha'u'llah Himself writes:

We have laid bare the divine mysteries and in most explicit language foretold future events, that neither the doubts of the faithless, nor the denials of the froward, nor the whisperings of the heedless may keep back the seekers after truth from the Source of the light of the One true God. 54

... most of the things which have come to pass on this earth have been announced and prophesied by the Most Sublime Pen... All that hath been sent down hath and will come to pass, word for word, upon earth. No possibility is left for anyone either to turn aside or protest. 55


An impartial examination of such prophecies, in the light of subsequent events, will either confirm or falsify these assertions. This, then, is a good place to begin our investigation.

In considering Baha'u'llah's prophecies I shall, in a few instances, refer also to statements by the Bab and 'Abdu'l-Baha The Bab claimed to be not only the Herald of Baha'u'llah but a Manifestation in His own right - a claim fully endorsed by Baha'u'llah. Although 'Abdu'l-Baha is not considered a Manifestation, He was designated by Baha'u'llah as the unerring, divinely-guided Interpreter of the Faith, and beyond that as one whose words are as authoritative and as binding upon believers as Baha'u'llah's own. All authenticated statements of these three Central Figures therefore constitute Baha'i scripture, and their prophecies all are invested with Baha'u'llah's authority. *

*To put it another way, Baha'u'llah predicted (at least by implication) that the prophecies of the Bab and 'Abdu'l-Baha would prove as reliable as His own.​

What are the developments that have, in the words of Baha'u'llah, 'come to pass on this earth' after being 'announced and prophesied by the Most Sublime Pen'? Those of which I am aware, and which I discuss in the following pages, include:

1. The fall from power of the French Emperor Napoleon III and the consequent loss of his empire.

2. The defeat of Germany in two bloody wars, resulting in the 'lamentations of Berlin'.

3. The success and stability of Queen Victoria's reign.

4. The dismissal of 'All Pasha as prime minister of Turkey.

5. The overthrow and murder of Sultan 'Abdu'l-'Aziz of Turkey.

6. The breakup of the Ottoman Empire, leading to the extinction of the 'outward splendour' of its capital, Constantinople.

7. The downfall of Nasiri'd-Din Shah, the Persian monarch.

8. The advent of constitutional government in Persia.

9. A massive (albeit temporary) decline in the fortunes of monarchy throughout the world.

10. A worldwide erosion of ecclesiastical authority.

11. The collapse of the Muslim Caliphate.

12. The spread of communism, the 'Movement of the Left', and its rise to world power.

13. The catastrophic decline of that same movement, triggered by the collapse of its egalitarian economy.

14. The rise of Israel as a Jewish homeland.

15. The persecution of Jews on the European continent (the Nazi holocaust).

16. America's violent racial struggles.

17. Baha'u'llah's release from the prison of 'Akka and the pitching of His tent on Mount Carmel.

18. The seizure and desecration of Baha'u'llah's House in Baghdad.

19. The failure of all attempts to create schism within the Baha'i Faith.

20. The explosive acceleration of scientific and technological progress.

21. The development of nuclear weapons.

22. The achievement of transmutation of elements, the age-old alchemist's dream.

23. Dire peril for all humanity as a result of that achievement.

24. The discovery that complex elements evolve in nature from simpler ones.

25. The recognition of planets as a necessary byproduct of star formation.

26. Space travel.

27. The realization that some forms of cancer are communicable.

28. Failure to find evidence for a 'missing link' between man and ape.

29. The non-existence of a mechanical ether (the supposed light-carrying substance posited by classical physics), and its redefinition as an abstract reality.

30. The breakdown of mechanical models (literal images) as a basis for understanding the physical world.

I will review each of these prophecies, describing when and how each was made and fulfilled. First, however, let us briefly consider their common historical setting.

The Challenge of Baha'u'llah, PROOFS OF THE BAHA'I REVELATION, pp. 35-40
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You remember how in math class we had to show our work. Same thing, Baha'is need to show they did what they did to come up with the things they claim.
Baha'is do not have to do the math, because Abdu'l-Baha already did the math (see below).
But this math problem always starts with the Baha'i answer... 1844 and then works backwards from there.
The math problem either works out to 1844 or not. It is not the Baha'i answer. It is just the correct answer.
The math problem does not start with the Baha'i answer, but it ends with the Baha'i answer.

“Now we must prove from the Holy Books that these two Manifestations have come, and we must divine the meaning of the words of the Prophets, for we wish for proofs drawn from the Holy Books.

A few days ago, at table, we put forth rational proofs establishing the truth of these two Manifestations.

To conclude: in the Book of Daniel, from the rebuilding of Jerusalem to the martyrdom of Christ, seventy weeks are appointed; for by the martyrdom of Christ the sacrifice is accomplished and the altar destroyed. 4 This is a prophecy of the manifestation of Christ. These seventy weeks begin with the restoration and the rebuilding of Jerusalem, concerning which four edicts were issued by three kings.

The first was issued by Cyrus in the year 536 B.C.; this is recorded in the first chapter of the Book of Ezra. The second edict, with reference to the rebuilding of Jerusalem, is that of Darius of Persia in the year 519 B.C.; this is recorded in the sixth chapter of Ezra. The third is that of Artaxerxes in the seventh year of his reign—that is, in 457 B.C.; this is recorded in the seventh chapter of Ezra. The fourth is that of Artaxerxes in the year 444 B.C.; this is recorded in the second chapter of Nehemiah.

But Daniel refers especially to the third edict which was issued in the year 457 B.C. Seventy weeks make four hundred and ninety days. Each day, according to the text of the Holy Book, is a year. For in the Bible it is said: “The day of the Lord is one year.” 5 Therefore, four hundred and ninety days are four hundred and ninety years. The third edict of Artaxerxes was issued four hundred and fifty-seven years before the birth of Christ, and Christ when He was martyred and ascended was thirty-three years of age. When you add thirty-three to four hundred and fifty-seven, the result is four hundred and ninety, which is the time announced by Daniel for the manifestation of Christ.

But in the twenty-fifth verse of the ninth chapter of the Book of Daniel this is expressed in another manner, as seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; and apparently this differs from the first saying. Many have remained perplexed at these differences, trying to reconcile these two statements. How can seventy weeks be right in one place, and sixty-two weeks and seven weeks in another? These two sayings do not accord.

But Daniel mentions two dates. One of these dates begins with the command of Artaxerxes to Ezra to rebuild Jerusalem: this is the seventy weeks which came to an end with the ascension of Christ, when by His martyrdom the sacrifice and oblation ceased.

The second period, which is found in the twenty-sixth verse, means that after the termination of the rebuilding of Jerusalem until the ascension of Christ, there will be sixty-two weeks: the seven weeks are the duration of the rebuilding of Jerusalem, which took forty-nine years. When you add these seven weeks to the sixty-two weeks, it makes sixty-nine weeks, and in the last week (69–70) the ascension of Christ took place. These seventy weeks are thus completed, and there is no contradiction.

Now that the manifestation of Christ has been proved by the prophecies of Daniel, let us prove the manifestations of Bahá’u’lláh and of the Báb. Up to the present we have only mentioned rational proofs; now we shall speak of traditional proofs.

In the eighth chapter of the Book of Daniel, verse thirteen, it is said: “Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?” Then he answered (v. 14): “Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed”; (v. 17) “But he said unto me … at the time of the end shall be the vision.” That is to say, how long will this misfortune, this ruin, this abasement and degradation last? meaning, when will be the dawn of the Manifestation? Then he answered, “Two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” Briefly, the purport of this passage is that he appoints two thousand three hundred years, for in the text of the Bible each day is a year. Then from the date of the issuing of the edict of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem until the day of the birth of Christ there are 456 years, and from the birth of Christ until the day of the manifestation of the Báb there are 1844 years. When you add 456 years to this number it makes 2300 years. That is to say, the fulfillment of the vision of Daniel took place in the year A.D. 1844, and this is the year of the Báb’s manifestation according to the actual text of the Book of Daniel. Consider how clearly he determines the year of manifestation; there could be no clearer prophecy for a manifestation than this.

In Matthew, chapter 24, verse 3, Christ clearly says that what Daniel meant by this prophecy was the date of the manifestation, and this is the verse: “As He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?” One of the explanations He gave them in reply was this (v. 15): “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand).” In this answer He referred them to the eighth chapter of the Book of Daniel, saying that everyone who reads it will understand that it is this time that is spoken of. Consider how clearly the manifestation of the Báb is spoken of in the Old Testament and in the Gospel.

To conclude, let us now explain the date of the manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh from the Bible. The date of Bahá’u’lláh is calculated according to lunar years from the mission and the Hejira of Muḥammad; for in the religion of Muḥammad the lunar year is in use, as also it is the lunar year which is employed concerning all commands of worship.

In Daniel, chapter 12, verse 6, it is said: “And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by Him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half; and that when He shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.” 6

As I have already explained the signification of one day, it is not necessary to explain it further; but we will say briefly that each day of the Father counts as a year, and in each year there are twelve months. Thus three years and a half make forty-two months, and forty-two months are twelve hundred and sixty days. The Báb, the precursor of Bahá’u’lláh, appeared in the year 1260 from the Hejira of Muḥammad, by the reckoning of Islám.

Afterward, in verse 11, it is said: “And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolation be set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.” 7

The beginning of this lunar reckoning is from the day of the proclamation of the prophethood of Muḥammad in the country of Ḥijáz; and that was three years after His mission, because in the beginning the prophethood of Muḥammad was kept secret, and no one knew it save Khadíjah and Ibn Nawfal. 8 After three years it was announced. And Bahá’u’lláh, in the year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muḥammad, caused His manifestation to be known. 9


10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL, Some Answered Questions, pp. 40-44
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I find Matthew 24:15 is about the Roman armies who destroyed un-faithful Jerusalem in the year 70.
So, as God used the political/military forces in the past, so once again the political/military will prove to be God's arm of the law to carry out His justice against the corrupted religious world (starting with corrupted Christendom)
 
Top