Christians: Female Involvement in Ministry

[Captain Civic]

Lately our church elected its first female elder. Although that's nothing like a pastor, it was still a big deal for our conservative Baptist Church. I've heard that some of the long time members have left because of it.

I was at a Bible study group (which is just five or six guys around my age, so similar thoughts normally) and the issue of women in ministry came up. Most of us disagreed that a woman should ever be head pastor (though I didn't say so) and most were reasonably reluctant to even say they could be a pastor.

What is the biblical teachings normally used to say women can't be leaders? And with those verses, are they cultural or based on Christ's teaching?

 

[ChristineES]

It actually never says anywhere that women can't be teachers or whatever. It does say that no one should be a teacher or whatever:

Matthew 23:8 But you must not be called Rabbi, for One is your teacher, Christ, and you are all brothers.
Matthew 23:9 And call no one your father on the earth, for One is your Father in Heaven.
Matthew 23:10 Nor be called teachers, for One is your Teacher, even Christ.

If you go by these verses, then you can say that no one at all, male of female is allowed to be a preacher or a teacher.

 

[rocka21]

There were female preachers in the Bible.

As far as the Baptist go, how about Charles Stanley? How come he is still pastoring? Didn't he do the D word? I guess the baptist rules change for him. .... wink wink....

 

[+Xausted]

not exactly sure if there are any passages that say no women preachers ( as far as i know there are not, but i could be wrong). i am sure it is much more of a culteral thing, both then and now.
would be interested to know the reasons against women preachers that people from your church believe in (....cant actually think of one valid arguement against women being allowed into ministry so would be interested to hear one)

 

[Sola'lor]

Women regularly teach and preach in the LDS chruch. They are deeply involved in the structure of the church. They don't hold the priesthood though.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Lately our church elected its first female elder. Although that's nothing like a pastor, it was still a big deal for our conservative Baptist Church. I've heard that some of the long time members have left because of it.

I was at a Bible study group (which is just five or six guys around my age, so similar thoughts normally) and the issue of women in ministry came up. Most of us disagreed that a woman should ever be head pastor (though I didn't say so) and most were reasonably reluctant to even say they could be a pastor.

What is the biblical teachings normally used to say women can't be leaders? And with those verses, are they cultural or based on Christ's teaching?

Civic,

The argument against women in ministry comes from these two verses (from KJV):

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law" (1 Corinthians 14:34).

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence" (1 Timothy 2:11-12).

Basically, the reasoning is that if women must be silent in church, she obviously cannot preach. The stipulation that "when men are present" or "in worship services" is usually added due to the context of worship in 1 Corinthians. These churches usually completely ignore the context that women in the Corinthian churches were prophesying (1 Cor 11... this problem is best solved by the theory that 1 Cor is a compilation of letters).

I would say, most certainly, that these stipulations are cultural BUT note that it was part of the culture of the NT and early church to have women teachers, disciples, apostles, and patrons and these commands by no means limited them.

note Bible.com

 

[Captain Civic]

Civic,

The argument against women in ministry comes from these two verses (from KJV):

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law" (1 Corinthians 14:34).

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence" (1 Timothy 2:11-12).

Those were the two verses we actually discussed, but one guy was uncomfortable because he didn't like the idea of debating it when we didn't have the facts. Seems we had the verses.

Basically, the reasoning is that if women must be silent in church, she obviously cannot preach. The stipulation that "when men are present" or "in worship services" is usually added due to the context of worship in 1 Corinthians. These churches usually completely ignore the context that women in the Corinthian churches were prophesying (1 Cor 11... this problem is best solved by the theory that 1 Cor is a compilation of letters).

In reference to the underlined, are you speaking about the original churches, or the ones today?

Yeah, I also noticed that women were prophesying despite it seeming to clash with that prhase.

I would say, most certainly, that these stipulations are cultural BUT note that it was part of the culture of the NT and early church to have women teachers, disciples, apostles, and patrons and these commands by no means limited them.

That seems to be the case. That link was good. So whereabouts, if there is a estimate, did the church start outlawing female leaders?

 

[tomspug]

Lately our church elected its first female elder. Although that's nothing like a pastor, it was still a big deal for our conservative Baptist Church. I've heard that some of the long time members have left because of it.

I was at a Bible study group (which is just five or six guys around my age, so similar thoughts normally) and the issue of women in ministry came up. Most of us disagreed that a woman should ever be head pastor (though I didn't say so) and most were reasonably reluctant to even say they could be a pastor.

What is the biblical teachings normally used to say women can't be leaders? And with those verses, are they cultural or based on Christ's teaching?

It's not biblical. There is one verse that tells women not to talk in church, but it's referring to talking DURING a service, like interrupting other people. I guess that was a problem at that particular church Paul was writing to (I've had that happen to me, so annoying!).
My church does just fine with two male and two female pastors. They all rock!

 

[Scott C.]

What is the biblical teachings normally used to say women can't be leaders? And with those verses, are they cultural or based on Christ's teaching?

As an LDS, I believe in the necessity of Priesthood in the the Lord's church. The Biblical pattern is that only men may be ordained to the priesthood. In our church women can hold leadership positions and speak and teach in church, to the extent that those responsibilities don't require the priesthood. In discussions with Protestants on RF, I have heard that many Christians don't believe that priesthood exists today or is necessary. So if a Christian does not believe that priesthood exists in their church, I don't see why they would be concerned about a woman holding any particular position in their church.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

In reference to the underlined, are you speaking about the original churches, or the ones today?

Today.

That seems to be the case. That link was good. So whereabouts, if there is a estimate, did the church start outlawing female leaders?

It's out of my time period... sometime after Constantine.

 

[tomspug]

It is not the Biblical pattern. It is the worldly pattern simply because men tend to DESIRE to lead more than women. This doesn't mean ALL women have no desire to lead.

In fact, there ARE biblical examples of women leaders. One of the spiritual leaders of Israel was a woman. Two books of the Bible are focused on woman role models.

 

[Scott C.]

It is not the Biblical pattern. It is the worldly pattern simply because men tend to DESIRE to lead more than women. This doesn't mean ALL women have no desire to lead.

In fact, there ARE biblical examples of women leaders. One of the spiritual leaders of Israel was a woman. Two books of the Bible are focused on woman role models.

But, do you believe that there was priesthood in the Old Testament and do you believe women were specifically ordained to that priesthood in the OT?

 

[tomspug]

But, do you believe that there was priesthood in the Old Testament and do you believe women were specifically ordained to that priesthood in the OT?

No. The priesthood falls specifically to the tribe of Levi. I don't see a correlation between being a leader and being a Jewish priest.

Edit: Ah, I understand your point.

 

[Ratiocinative]

As with the verses already posted, the Bible clearly prohibits women serving in positions of spiritual leadership over men. There's no way to debate against it unless you're willing to say that Bible isn't the inspired word of God. Perhaps the reason why some people reject these versus is because they think it is a bash against women, which it isn't. The Bible never says that women are inferior to men or incapable of being leaders, in fact it says that all are equal in the sight of God and that God has no favorites. God has simply appointed men and women to different roles in the church. Appointing women to positions of spiritual leadership is clearly prohibited in Biblical teachings.

 

[happ]

Many Catholics disagree with the Church teaching that only men can be ordained into the priesthood. Nuns play a strong role [even running a parish when no pastor is available] yet cannot preach or celebrate Mass. There were women deacons/deaconess in the early Church [some are saints in the Catholic Church] yet this is not allowed when we need all the resources possible to reach the faithful.

I have many Lutheran family members & once met a female Lutheran pastor. I was really impressed with her ability to preach and chant the Holy Communion.

 

[Captain Civic]

As with the verses already posted, the Bible clearly prohibits women serving in positions of spiritual leadership over men.

If you read it without the social context. Not to mention about ten verses down Paul talks about women prophesying, which he has no troubles with (unless they don't have their head covered.)

 

[sojourner]

Misogyny has absolutely no place in the Church.