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Christians: Belief in time?

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by curiouslyminty, Jan 9, 2006.

  1. curiouslyminty

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    I'm going to try my hardest to explain what I mean without using math, because I'm afraid that would alienate from my post. But I want to explain my view of time.

    I believe time, although unable to be fully explained, refers to any form of progression of thought or energy. In other words I don't believe that time exist seperately from creation. It is created when any change anywhere occurs.

    For example- Before the creation of earth, I believe God was in a state of stasis. Completely self contained, knew all, needed nothing. In that state time would not have existed and the moment would be everlasting.

    Another more easy to understand example. What defines a moment? If we take a second, and continually split it. We can get closer... and closer to a specific moment. But when does it get so small that it can't be divided? When is it in its absolute parts? And whats more... what allows for the connection from one absolute part to the next?

    I believe its the progression of God. As God moves so do we. Through an unexplained creation of moments one after another that we live in but cannot explain.

    I have wondered if heaven and hell are called eternal due to the state we are in, and not the amount of moments afterward. In other words, a moment. Singular but everlasting. Whether in a state of judgement and abandonment (hell) or acceptance and forgiveness (heaven), its just eternal in its implications not its amount of time because time would not longer exist.

    I know this doesn't go well with mormon's view of God. But being a math major and a protestant I find it rather intruiging view. Thoughts?


    ps- its impossible to talk about timeless-ness without using temporal terminology. Its a fallacy of human language, hopefully my thoughts are getting through even with that barrier. :banghead3
     
  2. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    So what exactly do you mean when you say "as God moves"? You speak of the "progression of God." Are you saying that God progresses? If He is perfect and has never changed, how can He progress?
     
  3. Mike182

    Mike182 Flaming Queer

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    depends upon your definition of God ;)
     
  4. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    I don't have much of a problem with your theory. I seem to recall a verse in one of the Standard Works saying in effect that God is outside of time, but I can't find it. I'll keep looking.
     
  5. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    Found it. Alma 40:8 in the Book of Mormon. It is a larger discourse about ressurection.
     
  6. curiouslyminty

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    No I dont believe God can change at all, ever. But he can cause a change.

    I believe the first moment to be God. The second creation. A little simplistic but accurate.
     
  7. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    This is what I have learned too. There is eternity past, before the creation, and eternity future, after the great white throne judgement and the new heavens and new earth. As humans we live "in time" so to speak. I believe when the earth was set in motion and God said let there be light, and he called the light day and the darkness night and the morning and the evening were the first day, he started time for us. He created the universe, but remember, the sun, moon, and stars were created the 4th day, the light of the first day being another source, maybe Jesus, the light of the world? I dunno. Anway, anything CREATED has to have a beginning, Man being created on the 6th day of creation. God has always existed, before the creation, and therefore needed no creator himself and has always been God from everlasting to everlasting, who has councelled me?, says God. He has always been God, always Holy, there are no other Gods before Him nor beside Him nor after Him says the Bible. He is the First and the Last, etc. Time as we mere humans on this planet know it, WILL cease to exist as we know it, and it will be eternity. That is why one day is like a thousand years to God, you could say a google amount of years, it is just eternal, very hard to comprehend. The more I study verses about God, and goings forth are from everlasting to everlasting, and he changes not, I understand, God has always been Almighty God, and exists outside of time as we know or understand it, and will always exist the same as he has always been God. To say God had an origin, would make him a created being and thus there would be other gods, and so on, and so on, but he says there ARE no other Gods nor ever will be. This idea stems from man wanting to feel like he can progress on his own merit, even though ALL our righteousness is as filthy rags to God, and only His Righteousness covers us, and His blood cleansed us, but it is a pride thing, self-effort, self-righteousness. A constant feeling that you know deep down you are not perfect, and an unattainable thing in this life, making many feel bad and guilty and confused about themselves. One day, we will be changed, see I Cor. 15, and Thess. 4 on that. But for now, we accept the free gift, and do our best, because we have received the free gift.
     
  8. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Gimme a second, and I'll figure this out in a timely fashion. :D
     
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  9. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Just trying to be the devil's advocate here, CM... But I thought that with God, all things are possible. Are you saying that He is incapable of becoming more than He is right now? I would think that His potential is without limit.
     
  10. angellous_evangellous

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    Rationalizing the metaphysical reality of God is impossible. We can only know the qualities of the Creator by what the Creator reveals.
     
  11. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    God said he is perfect, perfect is complete, finished, he will never be less than he is now, and never more. He has never been less, and will never be more. God said he never changes, He is God, He is perfect. Always and Forever, God.
     
  12. curiouslyminty

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    Well I know you don't go to logical fallicies with that... And most would agree that its refering to humans, we all know God can acheive any of his goals.

    But saying hes the Alpha and Omega.. The beginning the End.. Thats all encompassing. God has no room for improvement because that would imply imperfection even in the slightest. And God's perfection is a clearly taught biblical principle.
     
  13. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I know. I don't go with those logical fallacies either (Can God make a stone so big He can't lift it? is one I just hate. It's so pointless.)

    What I was trying to say is that, God is perfect in terms of His relationship with us. In terms of His own being, there are no limits to His future potential. Kind of deep stuff, and stuff none of us can really get our thoughts around. I really don't feel a huge need to understand it since (1)I don't feel that I can and (2)knowing the answers isn't essential to my salvation. That said, I believe that all of the scriptures that have been quoted on both sides of the argument are true. Perhaps in the eternities to come we will have the privilege of being able to see how they really aren't contradicting themselves at all.
     
  14. curiouslyminty

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    Potential implies an ability to be greater than you currently are. (which you know) But the implication is that there could be God's greater than OUR God. (Isn't that the teaching? That God used to be like us?) So I assume our God had a God at one point... Well Why again does God say he knows no other God's beside him? Has he forgotten his past life as whatever a being he was. Could God used to have been typing on alien forums debating whether His God was real? Those are completely possible questions following your train of thought.

    I believe christian teaching says that He is forever the way is he is now. With no chance of change... Read the end of Job when God explains himself to him. God is perfect in all ways. He has no flaw, not just in the relationship but in himself. I can't believe in an adjustable God. One that is still figuring things out or doing self improvement.
    And further I don't think that it can be found anywhere but mormon doctrine.
     
  15. curiouslyminty

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    AHH... this was supposed to be about time. :) Maybe I should have specified, protestants and catholics who hold to the perfection of God.
     
  16. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you curioslyminty, so what I wonder, and I am only wondering, not saying for sure, or anything, although I may have said it before, but just a thought, If the God we refer to is and always has been perfect in all His ways, and the Mormon god was once a man or whatever they teach, but was less at one time and had to work through his own efforts to become god, then are we not talking of two different gods here? I mean, just maybe, thats all. One is described differently than the other, which is the real God, please stand up, lol. If so, though, if one places their faith in a false god to save them, can that god save them? It is a valid question considering the differences we have concerning our Ggods.
     
  17. ChrisP

    ChrisP Veteran Member

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    Interesting but infuriating.

    There are no absolutes for a reason. Absolutes are not useful, because once something is absolute, their is NO ROOM FOR MOVEMENT! Once there is no room for movement there is no ability to change or adapt.

    Adaptation and invention or the results of necessity. If something is necessary and it cannot be achieved due to the existence of a preventative absolute, where does that leave us?
     
  18. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Sorry, I don't see that implication at all.

    Have you had a chance to read my post #70 on your "Hoping to hear some thoughts from Mormons thread?" It might be well for you do to so. I explained there what constitues "official doctrine." Before we continue on this train of thought (which I believe is actually yours, not mine), I'll wait for you to do that.

    Me neither. I just believe that everything that God creates (and I believe that He is still creating) denotes progress. Evidently I haven't explained myself very well, but I've done the best I can.

    Well, the way you put it, it can't even be found in Mormon doctrine. ;) On the other hand, I'm fine with unique.
     
  19. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Well, if you only wanted to talk to Protestants and Catholics, maybe you should have. It's not too late though. If you'd like us to leave, just say so. There are lots of other threads on the forum.
     
  20. curiouslyminty

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    There is differences in the way we are saved, the God that we worship, the Savior Jesus, Mary, The apostles, Its a revamp.

    We could ask other christians do we believe that Jews are saved?

    I do believe that if you seek you will find though, no matter what banner you fly under. I can only hope we are all honestly seeking.
     
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