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Christianity will 'reconquer' America

It doesn't look good for "secularism" all the data points to secularization of the US being the result of an exodus of progressive Christians from progressive Christian churches, Evangelicals tend to be stalwart defenders of the faith, are growing in number, and gaining influence in largely neglected political regions.

While there's many uphill battles yet ahead, the main argument I present is that the US is similar to Rome and so Christian exceptionalism will win. To make that argument a few historical tid-bits would be the Edict of Milan which included Christianity into the "religious pluralism" of the Roman state by making it legal. Over the next 100 years Christianity in one of its fiercest phases of Evangelism ever in history, made short work of religious pluralism in Rome. The major reason for this is because Christianity does not really allow room for any other views; even if those views are the same (such as humanism, or pro-life or whatever) without a faith in Christ you're still wrong.

And so Christianity works to convert people and exclude irreligious people from the public life.

The engine of Christianity ended in the Western World (north of South America and parts of Africa) when progressive Christianity began to become a dominant view, transforming a conservative document into a "living" document that was "more of a guideline".

This began around the 1890s but peaked around 1930-1940 which gave rise to the 40s secularist judgments of so-called "Activist judges" which has created an 'apparent' secularism in the US.

Europe had the same wave but it has never had a resurfacing of Evangelism; Evangelism in Germany has in fact just returned to Germany in mass this year - for the first time since the Reformation. Europe's period of secularism may be ending too but it's less important for this examination.

In the US secularism faces a declining percentage of the electorate against a rising percentage of Evangelicals, conservative Christians who seek to restore that exceptionalism that is Christianity.

How long this will take is debatable - since there are figures up until 2000 for Evangelical and religious populations' growth rate. But how it will reveal itself in politics over time, or how its growth will change over time isn't so obvious - it won't be conceivably until 2010 before more data is given on the growth of the Evangelical population in the US.

But, in summary, all trends are pointing to secularism being a blip similar to the period of Roman religious pluralism being a finite thing after Christianity was legalized in Rome.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
I think instead that Christianity will be forced to evolve with secularism and the influence of other fast growing religions (Wicca is becoming quite the influence now), or be left in the dust.

People want progression.
 
Well history just doesn't show that to be the case; anywhere Christianity is allowed to evangelize it wins; even in Islamic countries. Speaking of which since secularization of Turkey was formally legalized (by enforcement) in the 1980s; Turkey is one of the fastest "Christianizing" nations on Earth.

Right now Evangelism is strongest in the US, parts of South America, China (where the number of Christians went from 7 million in 1950 to over 100 million present day), Africa, and parts of the middle east mainly in Turkey which is one of the only "secular" Islamic states.

Historically any challenge to Christianity loses if Christianity is not oppressed by actual force either of law or military force.

This "victory" comes from Evangelism which in the US was asleep since about the 1920s, in Europe it's still asleep though possibly awakening.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
I admit I have no documentation to support my own claims, but considering the state of politics now...

Problem is, Christianity also uses force and fear to gain support. Not always, but it has. And such tactics will meet opposition.

But I do know that Christianity will continue to evolve and progress with secularization. The past has shown that to be the case.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Wow... what a warped view of American secularism.

The separation of church and state was set up to encourage religion. It wasn't a matter of the Founding Fathers being irreligious, deist or atheist (though some were), it was a matter of them having seen the horrendous impact that sectarianism, religious involvement in government and outright religious wars in Britain and continental Europe.

They realized that when a religion becomes officially adopted by a state, the "official" religion becomes corrupted and all other religions are oppressed.

- keep your religion out of our government, because I don't trust your religion to have power over me.
- keep our government out of my religion, because I don't trust government to not muck my religion up.

Even if your religion is the predominant one in the land, the second sentiment still applies.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
Wow... what a warped view of American secularism.

The separation of church and state was set up to encourage religion. It wasn't a matter of the Founding Fathers being irreligious, deist or atheist (though some were), it was a matter of them having seen the horrendous impact that sectarianism, religious involvement in government and outright religious wars in Britain and continental Europe.

They realized that when a religion becomes officially adopted by a state, the "official" religion becomes corrupted and all other religions are oppressed.

- keep your religion out of our government, because I don't trust your religion to have power over me.
- keep our government out of my religion, because I don't trust government to not muck my religion up.

Even if your religion is the predominant one in the land, the second sentiment still applies.

Nicely said! :clap

I doubt Christianity will always be the dominant religion.
 

Luminous

non-existential luminary
whetever... politics is still gonna be the lowliest sport of all. political opinions and religious opinions. I just hope that we finally get an American Church that dictates perfection through god's will and not ''the people's''
 

Luminous

non-existential luminary
Nicely said! :clap

I doubt Christianity will always be the dominant religion.

i heard the end of christianity was comming in 2150. with the ending of the age of pieces and the beginning of the age of aquarius.(whatever that means)
 
Let's see, considering that most states in the Founding Fathers' time were sectarian you obviously don't know much if anything about the intent of the "Establishment Clause" of the U.S. Constitution.

Kinda odd don't you think for the States to ratify a Constitution that would "disestablish" their established religions? Oh wait...they didn't.

Anyway...that being said, the argument that the Founding Fathers believed that sectarian government was harmful is upside-down.

The Founding fathers expected the U.S. to be sectarian; they expected Christianity to give the moral compass needed for the Republic to work, just read their own writing some time.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Three points:
  • Argumentum ad numerum is tiresome.
  • When things get tough there's a renewed craving for comfort food.
  • If Obama's victory is an indication of what it's like when "things get tough" for secularists, I for one hope things get worse.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
It's My Birthday!
Pop quiz: If the Evangellical church acheives world domination, what role, according to the Book of Revlations, does that put them in?
 

Smoke

Done here.
It might be premature to celebrate the rise of an Evangelical theocracy. Self-identified Evangelicals make up a little more than a quarter of Americans. If you only count as Evangelicals those who meet the Barna Group's definition --
"Evangelicals" meet the born again criteria plus seven other conditions. Those include saying their faith is very important in their life today; believing they have a personal responsibility to share their religious beliefs about Christ with non-Christians; believing that Satan exists; believing that eternal salvation is possible only through grace, not works; believing that Jesus Christ lived a sinless life on earth; asserting that the Bible is accurate in all that it teaches; and describing God as the all-knowing, all-powerful, perfect deity who created the universe and still rules it today. Being classified as an evangelical is not dependent upon church attendance or the denominational affiliation of the church they attend. Respondents were not asked to describe themselves as "evangelical."​
-- only 8% of Americans are Evangelicals.
 
I'm talking of the broader definition which actually includes 40% of Americans and that includes some successful "liberal" churches which fall far outside of your definition.
 
Three points:
  • Argumentum ad numerum is tiresome.
  • When things get tough there's a renewed craving for comfort food.
  • If Obama's victory is an indication of what it's like when "things get tough" for secularists, I for one hope things get worse.

Obama is not showing himself to be a "secularist" by any means...and won the election by winning a lot of sectarians including conservative Catholics.
 
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Smoke

Done here.
I'm talking of the broader definition which actually includes 40% of Americans and that includes some successful "liberal" churches which fall far outside of your definition.
A definition that broad -- and I'm having trouble imagining a definition of "Evangelical" that would encompass 40% of the population in the first place -- would doubtless include a great many people, probably a majority of such "Evangelicals," who would have no interest in an Evangelical theocracy.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Two points; Obama is not showing himself to be a "secularist" by any means...and won the election by winning a lot of sectarians including conservative Catholics.
And probably my Rabbi as well. Obama is unashamedly Christian, unashamedly progressive, and unashamedly committed to science and reason. I can easily live with that ... :)
 
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Engyo

Prince of Dorkness!
My only question for SolaScriptura is this: Do you believe that US citizens should have freedom of religion, or not?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Let's see, considering that most states in the Founding Fathers' time were sectarian you obviously don't know much if anything about the intent of the "Establishment Clause" of the U.S. Constitution.

Kinda odd don't you think for the States to ratify a Constitution that would "disestablish" their established religions? Oh wait...they didn't.
That's right - they didn't. The Bill of Rights didn't apply to State governmental matters until the 14th Amendment, which wasn't ratified until 1868.

At the time of the ratification of both the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, the Federal government was supposed to be the common framework in which all the states, including a few that had official religious affiliations as well as most that had none at all, could participate as equals. Given that, yes, I do think that the Federal government was always intended to be secular.

Anyway...that being said, the argument that the Founding Fathers believed that sectarian government was harmful is upside-down.

The Founding fathers expected the U.S. to be sectarian; they expected Christianity to give the moral compass needed for the Republic to work, just read their own writing some time.
According to Washington, perhaps. Not according to Jefferson or Franklin. Especially not according to Paine. And apparently not according to any of the members of the House or Senate who ratified the Treaty of Tripoli.

I think it's also worth pointing out that "Christianity" certainly wasn't (and I would argue still isn't) a single faith. While they disagreed about the role of God in government, they were in steadfast agreement about not aligning the government of the United States with any particular denomination, and they were also all in agreement about giving all religions and denominations they were familiar with the freedom to worship or believe as they pleased. This included a whole spectrum of Christian denominations (including some considered to be "not Christian" by many Christians), but also Judaism, deism/freethought and others.
 

Luminous

non-existential luminary
Obama is not showing himself to be a "secularist" by any means...and won the election by winning a lot of sectarians including conservative Catholics.
Catholics aren't "secterian" you are secterian. Roman Catholics make up the majority of Christians and were the established church.
 
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