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Christianity - Once Saved Always Saved?

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Squirt, Feb 6, 2006.

?
  1. Yes.

    19 vote(s)
    42.2%
  2. No.

    21 vote(s)
    46.7%
  3. I don't know.

    5 vote(s)
    11.1%
  1. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I'm just about to turn in for the night, so I'm going to be brief. (You'll probably appreciate that, anyway. :D )

    Enduring to the end means continuing to be faithful in one's commitment to Christ throughout one's life. It means being obedient to God's commandments even when it would be a lot easier to be a slacker. I believe that it would be more accurate to say that God knows the condition of our hearts and that fundamental righteousness is based upon our adherance to what we know to be right. To me, integrity counts for a lot with Him. If we claim to have faith in Christ's ability to save us and do not attempt to live according to His example, our faith in Him is nothing more than a "dead faith." I don't believe we are saved by dead faith any more than we are saved by works.
     
  2. AllisonW70

    AllisonW70 Member

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    Hey Katzpur,
    I'm sorry it took a while for me to respond to this. I've had company this weekend!

    Are you saying that once we "confess Christ," nothing more is expected of us? I would be interested to hear your interpretation of these three verses of scripture:

    Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

    Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

    James 2:22, 24 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


    OK, to answer you questions.......No, I do not believe that nothing more is expected of us than to "confess Christ." I was only referring to the original question and age old debate of "once saved, always saved," which yes, I do believe. I use the word "saved" simply because it is the word that is used throughout the New Testament.

    Ephesians 2:8-9
    8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    When we do accept Christ as our Lord and Savior and accept His gift of forgiveness through grace, we have to acknowledge that we are sinners. What are we asking forgiveness for if our sinful nature is not acknowledged? At that point, if we are sincere about our commitment to Christ, we will repent from our sins. That is the action behind salvation. When we accept our Lord and choose to follow Him, and if we are genuinely sincere in this decision, we will automatically want to be obedient. We will want to serve Him to the best of our ability. Receiving salvation from our Heavenly Father is certainly not just "lip service" and I did not mean to give that impression in my original comments. Therefore, I interpret the scripture that you gave as examples, the same as you.


    Also, I believe that no one sin is greater than another.


    But in John 19:10-11, we read Jesus words to Pilate in which he specifically describes Judas' sin as being more serious than Pilate's sin:
    Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

    Now to the issue of Judas and Pilate. The way I view this and the scripture you cited is that Judas was a public follower of Christ. Pilate, obviously, was not. When we acknowledge Christ before others as Lord, we are making a commitment to Him and devoting ourselves to Him. That is a commitment that we cannot back out of without grave consequences. It is the only unpardonable sin. And it is exactly what Judas did when He betrayed Christ.
    MARK 3:28-29
    28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
    29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
    Now, this brings up the issue of Peter, doesn't it?! Hot headed Peter denied Christ three times the night before the crucifixion. And yet, he was forgiven and went on to become one of Christ's most outspoken servants. Why? I read an answer to this question one time that sounded very reasonable to me. The answer had to do with sincerity of heart, which is something I have referred to several times here. Jesus pays very close attention to our sincerity and genuineness. In the article that I read, the author kept referring to what he called "Peter Moments"........the moments when we are full of doubt and fear. On one day our passion to follow Christ and His example may completely encompass our entire being. And then something happens...something beyond our control and beyond our comprehension to deal with. We panic, we fear and doubt sets in...... "Peter Moments"...... It doesn't mean that our original commitment was not real or genuine. And Christ knows that because He knows and loves us despite our shortcomings. Judas went out looking for his form of betrayal. Peter did not. Jesus knew that.
    Now one more verse to support the "once saved, always saved" viewpoint......
    Galatians 4:5-7


    5To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
    6And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

    Paul referred to those who follow Christ, (and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ) as being adopted into the family of God. He also does this in Romans 8:14-17.
    The Father in Heaven who has adopted us into His family is not going to kick us out of that family if/when we misbehave. We have been adopted as His family; we are His now and forever.
     
  3. writer

    writer Active Member

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    Allison. 'Cept i'd point out that God did and does much more than "adopt." In fact, and in experience, and in the New Testament, He Duzn't "adopt." He bears. He bears-again. He generates--He regenerates. A much superior and accurate translation is "sonship" rather than "adoption." ReBIRTH--that aspect of salvation, one could call it "beginning" salvation--can never be reversed, neither by God nor by any man, including the subject. It's even so in regard to our first birth, in the natural realm. Once born anew always born anew
     
  4. AllisonW70

    AllisonW70 Member

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    :yes: :yes:
     
  5. angellous_evangellous

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    The one who endures to the end will be saved.

    May God have mercy on us all!
     
  6. rmarchy

    rmarchy Member

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    To the end of what?
     
  7. writer

    writer Active Member

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    65 The one who endures to the end will be saved.
    Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord'll be saved. Just like there are different, and separate judgments in the NT (2 Cor 5:10; Rv 22:12; Jn 5:24, 29; Rv 20:6, 11-15)--one for Christ-believers, others for unbelievers--so too the broad words "save, saved, salvation" r applied to different situations in the NT depending on their context. And to different aspects or phases of one complete salvation. This, sad to say, is one truth many so-called church 'fathers,' and many others, mistook and/or fail to recognize

    May God have mercy on us all!
    Judgment begins at the house of God. Believers in Christ are in altogether a separate category from unbelievers. They're God's household (1 P 4:17-18; cf Heb 12). For instance also: James 2:13-26 is written by James about believers, and their particular accountability to, and judgment before, their Lord (cf also Mt 7:21-23). Whereas altho Paul of course wrote Romans 3:20-4:25 and 10:1-17 To saints (believers); he wrote it About folks believing for the first time--transitioning from sinners to children

    56 How many sins does the christian have to do before their salvation is lost, 1,100,1000? Is Christianity like Islam where we enter into paradise by our good behviour and works? If that is the case then I have not a chance, LOL!!!
    This (to me)'s an excellent and nails-the-point-on-the-head comment by Ms Genna. If beginning-salvation can be lost, salvation in the eternal sense: it's not salvation. And such an evil; or at best errant, nonapostolic teaching; exactly is a bound-to-fail attempt to Judaize, Pelagicize, Islamicize, Mormonize, or religicize Christ's work or the NT faith of Christ (cf Romans 10:3; Galatians 1:8; 2:4-5; 3:1-14; Acts 15:5; 21:20b; Jn 6:29, 57)

    51 There are over 80 passages in the bible that clearly show that a sanctified Christian CAN loose your salvation.
    Mebbe i should ask: Salvation from what? Actually, as the Lord Jesus and His Word shows, for one born anew, it's impossible to lose his or her 2nd birth

    This was also always taught by the early christian Fathers of the Church too.
    To the extent this's so, or refers to eternal salvation: it's, sorry to say, their gross deviation, ignorance, or error from the apostles' teaching as recorded in the apostles' New Testament. It is also latent, or patent, as Genna points out: Judaizing, Islamicizing, and semi-Pelagianism at least

    Jesus was very clear in (Matt 5:27-30) when he told people not to lust because it could send you to hell...whole Body be thrown into hell
    Jesus said 'Gehenna' here. Not 'hell.' In any case, Jesus Was speaking to His disciples (Mt 5:1) in Mt 5-7, His believers. Not directly to unbelievers. And all the judgments from Judaism He used here (city-gate, Sanhedrin, Gehenna fire) applied to His judgment seat for Christians. Only (2 Cor 5:10; Rm 14:10, 12; 1 Cor 4:4-5; 3:13-15; Mt 16:27; 7:21-23; Rv 22:12; 3:5; Heb 10:27, 30). This has absolutely zero to do with eternity in the lake of fire (Rv 20:10-15; 19:20; Mt 25:41, 46; Daniel 12:2; Jn 5:29b; 3:18)

    Hence Lusting is a mortal sin.
    All sin's 'mortal.' For the wages of sin's death, but the gift of God's eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord--Paul, Rm 6:23 (cf also Jm 1:15). (1 Jn 5:16's referrin to a diff matter)

    ...made me your personal Lord and saviour...
    To say Christ and God's eternal salvation or justification is conditional, or doubtful, is to effectively say it's Not salvation or justification. And thus to say that He's not Savior. If He can't save. Or if His eternal salvation depends on one's own works or righteousness (Titus 3:4-6) additionally. This's a sad and grotesque, and religious and subtle perversion of God incarnate's and His apostles' teaching. But it's natural for religion. No matter what form that religion takes. I acknowledge strongly that "saved" and "salvation" r used both in present and in future tenses and contexts in the NT. But they are also strongly and definitely used in the past absolute tense. This simply means that salvation has different aspects and applications in different contexts. It absolutely doesn't mean that one who believes into Christ might perish eternally (Jn 6:37; 10:28-30; Heb 6:1-9, 17-20; Eph 1:3-5). Just like in the natural realm: once born anew, always born anew (Jn 1:12-13; 3:14-17; Jm 1:21; 1 P 1:3, 23; etc). The eternal God is not a so-called 'Indian-giver'

    certain sins(Like Lust) we can commit that can send us to hell if we don't repent before dying.
    Any and all sins can send us to eternity in the lake of fire. Which is why folks need to receive justification to receive another life. In other words: personally Christ Jesus Himself. Lord, Savior

    1 John 5:16-17...These mortal sins are sins unto spiritual death (like Jesus talked about in Matt 5) that can separate us from God and heaven if we do not repent before we die.
    Any and all sin separates one, whether believer or unbeliever, from God and heaven, at least experientially. Which is why John the apostle wrote that if we confess our sins, He's faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. But 1 Jn 5:16-17, like Acts 5:1-11 and 1 Corinthians 11:30b, is not referring to spiritual death in the first place. It's referring to physical death, as a kind of result, or judgment because of various serious sin, to one of God's own eternal children. Has absolutely zero to do with eternal 'hell.'
    Thanx
     
  8. Baerly

    Baerly Active Member

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    Writer wrote - Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord'll be saved.

    Baerly wrote - Many will say to me in that day Lord Lord.......ANd then will I (Jesus) profess to them,I never knew you,Depart from me,ye that work iniquity (Mt.7:21,22).

    The lesson of Simon about to Perish after he became a Christian is found in
    (Acts 8:18-24). Peter told him he would (perish) if he did not follow the second law of pardon (1John 1:9). I guess one can loose their salvation according to Peter an apostle. (2Peter 2:21) also teaches one can loose their salvation. This is such an ugly look at sin overcoming an Christian.

    Please show me where the new testament says a person believes INTO CHRIST? It is not there Writer. And please find where it says it using those words (Believes INTO CHRIST). We will be waiting awhile. in love Baerly
     
  9. writer

    writer Active Member

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    68 Writer wrote - Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord'll be saved.
    Actually, Joel did. First. About 2,800 years ago. I only copied him. As did Luke and Paul

    The lesson of Simon about to Perish after he became a Christian is found in
    (Acts 8:18-24). Peter told him he would (perish) if he did not follow the second law of pardon (1John 1:9).
    To the contrary: neither Peter nor John ever did, and never would, thank God, use the ridiculous terminology "second law of pardon." In Acts, 1 John, or anywhere. Dear Baerly's accurate that Simon was regenerated, thru faith. Baptrized, Christian (Ac 8:13). When Peter told him "May your silver go with you into destruction" in 8:20, due to Simon's heart not being right in a particular matter; that has absolutely zero to do with eternal perdition. Rather it had everything to do with dispensational discipline, punishment. If Simon never repented for that. Those born (Jn 3:5; 1:13) cannot un-birthed

    I guess one can loose their salvation according to Peter an apostle.
    'cording to Peter the apostle (and Paul, and John, and Jesus Christ, and James, and me): those born again must account for their life on earth (eg 2 Cor 5:10). Where they either receive reward or temporary discipline; for as much as 1000 years (Christ's millenium). According to Christ and John and Paul and Peter (1 P 4:17; etc): Christians' judgment's categorically different from that of unbelievers. They're separate categories. They're completely different. With different ends. According to Peter an apostle: no believer is, or can be, unregenerated. As Peter wrote in 1 P 3:20-21 related to baptism: "...were brought safely through by water...saves you." To say, like apparently dear Baerly's religion duz, that the saved can be unsaved, is to deny salvation period. Or to seek to alter its nature into something else. Maybe works. It's both against God, against nature, and contrary to the apostles' teachin

    (2Peter 2:21) also teaches one can loose their salvation.
    To contrary: 2 P 2:21, "it'd be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than, knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them," duz not teach that believers can suffer eternal damnation. Rather, like most of these passages that Baerly's (and other) religions may mis-take: Peter is referring to these particular heretical ones' present life and experiences after believing

    Please show me where the new testament says a person believes INTO CHRIST?
    As many as received Him, to them He gave authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name. God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that everyone who believes into Him would not perish, but would have eternal life. He who believes into Him is not condemned. He who does not believe shall be condemned. I do not ask concerning these only, but concerning those also who believe into Me through their word, that they all may be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that You have sent Me (etc etc etc etc).
    Thanks
     
  10. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Humanity stands in reconciliation to God, through the Christ-event. Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ.
     
  11. groovyable

    groovyable Member

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    God will judge us all on judgement day, simpal as, if he likes us, he will keep us into the new system yet if we reject (which some will do) then Jehovah will turn us back into dust.. therefore (destroyed) therefore we lose salvation. It is possable to lose salvation, anyone can say 'aye i accept christ' yet it is the one who is doing Gods will that will inherit the Kingdom of God, it is in all of our midst, its up to us to do his will, Jesus said something like.. ' Not all who say Lord, Lord will inherit the Kingdom of God'
     
  12. writer

    writer Active Member

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    71 God will judge us all on judgement day,
    To the contrary of this word "all;" as post 69 3rd para, and 67 1st 2 paras try to get into per the Scriptures: there r different judgments in the NT

    7 salvation. Only on Judgement is it achieved.
    Which's why God sent His Son to be judged (Jn 3:14-18; 5:24)

    71 simpal as, if he likes us, he will keep us into the new system yet if we reject (which some will do) then Jehovah will turn us back into dust.. therefore (destroyed)
    To the contrary: His judgment's based on righteousness, since that's the foundation of His throne. Nor will folks at the last judgment get "turned back into dust." Per the apostles' teaching

    therefore we lose salvation.
    To the contrary: folks at the great white throne in Rv 20 never had salvation.
    Christians can miss out on aspects of salvation. Such as today, if i lose my temper, i've missed being saved from it. But bona fide Christians, by definition, cannot perish eternally. Since they're born of God

    It is possable to lose salvation, anyone can say 'aye i accept christ' yet it is the one who is doing Gods will that will inherit the Kingdom of God,
    To accept Christ is God's will. And Christ cannot be lost. But God's kindom is more than merely the start. Which is why many (most?) believers may miss reigning with Him for 1,000 years (Mt 7:21)

    3 you can't actually lose what you haven't yet gained.
    To believe into Christ is to gain Him, to that extent

    We don't believe that anyone in this life is saved but rather they are in the process of being saved.
    The apostles, to the contrary, believed and knew both, and used both tenses of the verb "save/d" in their Scriptures. As post 4 suggests

    We are called to persevere to the end and at any point in the race someone can simply give up and stop running. 13 how do you explain the emphasis in Scripture on such things as persevering to the end and running the race?
    To stop running, in the NT sense, means neither that the runner never was born again, nor that the runner got unborned later

    7 There is no free...
    To the contrary: the free gracious gift of God's eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord

    9 Matthew 7:21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    This refers to reward or temporary discipline for Christians. Haz nothing to do with eternal perdition

    Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.
    Faith's the first aspect of obedience

    Salvation is contingent upon continued repentence.
    That's fair to say. Tho it'd b more accurate, apostolically, to write: continual salvation's contingent upon continual repentance

    12 Complete rejection of God is what loses your salvation.
    To the contrary concerning the 2nd birth: rejection cannot change birth

    16 ...doesn't mean that the gift of salvation is offered indescriminately.
    33 Christ's "gift" is offered only to those who are willing to walk the walk as opposed to merely talking the talk.
    To the contrary: God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that everyone who believes into Him would have eternal life

    16 justified, and not by faith only.
    This statement of James (2:24) duz not contradict Paul's "justified by faith apart from the works of the law" (Rm 3:28), becuz they're applying the word "justified" differently. Paul: in regard to unregenerate becoming justified (and regenerate) believers. James: in regard to us Christians being judged by the Lord at His judgement seat concerning our conduct. For reward or temporary punishment.

    believe that a conscious acceptance of Jesus Christ is required. Right there you have a "work."
    This is the work of God: that you believe into Him whom He has sent (Jn 6:29). This isn't Paul's negative: "work of the law" (Rm 3:28)

    25 Luke 8:13 - Jesus teaches that some people receive the word with joy, but they have no root, believe for a while, and then fall away in temptation. They had the faith but they lost it.
    If they had the 2nd birth thru faith, they can't lose their rebirth, becuz birth can't be lost. Nor is Christ's faith ever lost permanently

    Luke 12:42-46 - we can start out as a faithful and wise steward, then fall away and be assigned to a place with the unfaithful.
    "Appoint his portion with the unbelievers" (12:46). As with Mt 7:21, this refers to temporal punishment, even similar to what unbelievers will experience eternally

    John 6:70-71 - Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.
    Judas, chosen by Christ as one of the original 12, was never predestinated to grace. In fact: jus the opposite "Men, brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who seized Jesus...Let his habitation become desolate" (Ac 1:16, 20). And "son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled" (Jn 17:12)

    Matt. 7:18 - Jesus says that sound trees bear good fruit. But there is no guarantee that a sound tree will stay sound. It could go rotten.
    The eternal seed of life within all regenerated cannot sin (1 Jn 5:4; 3:9; Jn 3:6; Rm 8:10; 1 Cor 6:17)

    John 15:1-10 - we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don't bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die.
    Christ refers to dispensational (temporal) punishment and discipline here. Not eternal destiny

    Paul makes this absolutely clear in Rom. 11:20-23.
    Paul absolutely refers to the same matter here. As both He and Christ do much elsewhere

    33 What our works can do is make it possible for grace to be operative in our lives.
    Such works are from grace, and of grace (which is Christ), firstly

    36 where in Scripture does it state that Yahshua continues to forgive our sins over and over and over and over and over?
    How often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to 7 times? Jesus said to him, I don't say to you, Up to 7 times, but, Up to 70 times 7 (Matthew 18:21-22). If we confess our sins, He's faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 Jn 1:9). Cf also Exo and Deut
     
  13. Phil

    Phil New Member

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    I believe in once saved always saved because of the following scripture:

    Phil 1:6
    6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
     
  14. Phil

    Phil New Member

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    I voted no.
     
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