christian wicca, a contradiction

[Mike182]

in a different thread, Faint so kindly stated

Oh reeEEEeeally...and which religion is that, Christianity or Wicca? The former certainly doesn't allow for the latter.

i would like you to explain to me why my spiritual path (and the path of others) is (in your oppinion) a contradiction. my quarrel here is that by saying it is a contradiction, you are implying it is a 'false' faith

this is a one on one debate, between Faint and myself, so i would appreciate other people wishing to debate the issue to do so in the "general debates" forum

mike.

 

[Faint]

Sure thing. To begin, here are some points to consider:
1) Judging from what I've read, The Bible is not a salad bar. It is not meant to be dissected so that you can live in accordance only with the parts you like, while ignoring anything that rubs you the wrong way. If you "pick and choose" in this fashion, I do not believe you can be truthfully call yourself a Christian. Find another label (like U.U. , for instance).
2) "It is commonly understood that most Wiccans worship two deities: the Goddess and the God (sometimes known as the Horned God). Some traditions, such as the Dianic Wiccans, mainly worship the Goddess. In those traditions, the God plays either no role, or a diminished role. Many Gardnerian Wiccans do not claim to be dualist. They may practice some form of polytheism, often with particular reference to the Celtic pantheons. They may also be animists, pantheists, or indeed anywhere within the broad spectrum of Neopagan forms of worship." (from Wikipedia)
3) Whereas the Bible says:
"You shall have no other gods before me. (WEB)

Thou shalt have no other gods before me. (ASV)

You are to have no other gods but me. (BBE)

Thou shalt have no other gods before me. (DBY)

Thou shalt have no other gods before me. (KJV)

Thou shalt have no other gods before me. (WBS)

Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. (JPS)

Thou hast no other Gods before Me. " (YLT)

4) (from religioustolerance.org):
"Most Conservative Christians reject the concept that a Wiccan can be a Christian. Some of the problem areas are:
~ Many define a Christian quite specifically. They include only those who have repented of their sins, has trusted Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and has accepted certain core traditional Christian teachings. (e.g. the Trinity, Incarnation, resurrection of Jesus, virgin birth, heaven, hell, sin, salvation, original sin, the existence of Satan as a living entity, etc.) Many of these teachings are incompatible with Wiccan theology.

~ Many conservative Christian denominations teach that women should not be in a position of power over a man, either in church, at work, or at home. Such a belief is totally at variance with Wiccan beliefs who generally believe in sexual equality.

~ Religious conservatives generally believe that homosexuality is unnatural, abnormal, chosen, changeable and intrinsically sinful. Most Wiccans disagree with these beliefs, accepting the findings of human sexuality researchers that a homosexual orientation is normal and natural for a minority of adults. Further, an adult sexual orientation not chosen and cannot be changed.

~ Wiccans would have to abandon many traditional biblical teachings in order to consider themselves to be Christian. However, millions of Americans already reject major portions of the Bible, and still consider themselves to be Christians... These might include: genocide, human slavery, burning some hookers alive, whipping children with a rod, raping female prisoners of war, execution of non-virgin brides, executing people who work on the Sabbath, executing sexually active persons with a homosexual orientation, executing religious minorities, etc."

 

[Mike182]

Sure thing. To begin, here are some points to consider:
1) Judging from what I've read, The Bible is not a salad bar. It is not meant to be dissected so that you can live in accordance only with the parts you like, while ignoring anything that rubs you the wrong way. If you "pick and choose" in this fashion, I do not believe you can be truthfully call yourself a Christian. Find another label (like U.U. , for instance).

thats fair enough, but would you care to define what it is to be a christian

2) "It is commonly understood that most Wiccans worship two deities: the Goddess and the God (sometimes known as the Horned God). Some traditions, such as the Dianic Wiccans, mainly worship the Goddess. In those traditions, the God plays either no role, or a diminished role. Many Gardnerian Wiccans do not claim to be dualist. They may practice some form of polytheism, often with particular reference to the Celtic pantheons. They may also be animists, pantheists, or indeed anywhere within the broad spectrum of Neopagan forms of worship." (from Wikipedia)

some wiccans see the god and the goddess as being aspects of a higher (unknown) deity - for reference, this means i see it as being a monotheistic religion

3) Whereas the Bible says:
"You shall have no other gods before me. (WEB)

Thou shalt have no other gods before me. (ASV)

You are to have no other gods but me. (BBE)

Thou shalt have no other gods before me. (DBY)

Thou shalt have no other gods before me. (KJV)

Thou shalt have no other gods before me. (WBS)

Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. (JPS)

Thou hast no other Gods before Me. " (YLT)

all from the old testiment, the testiment i do not follow

4) (from religioustolerance.org):
"Most Conservative Christians reject the concept that a Wiccan can be a Christian. Some of the problem areas are:
~ Many define a Christian quite specifically. They include only those who have repented of their sins, has trusted Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and has accepted certain core traditional Christian teachings. (e.g. the Trinity, Incarnation, resurrection of Jesus, virgin birth, heaven, hell, sin, salvation, original sin, the existence of Satan as a living entity, etc.) Many of these teachings are incompatible with Wiccan theology.

whilest i agree with some of these, i do not believe in all of them - i would say the absolute beliefs you must adhere to to claim yourself a christian would be:
jesus as lord and saviour, incarnation, resurrection, virgin birth, heaven and hellsatan and salvation

belief in the trinity and original sin are not needed to be a christian

~ Many conservative Christian denominations teach that women should not be in a position of power over a man, either in church, at work, or at home. Such a belief is totally at variance with Wiccan beliefs who generally believe in sexual equality.

yes, conservative........ not liberal

~ Religious conservatives generally believe that homosexuality is unnatural, abnormal, chosen, changeable and intrinsically sinful. Most Wiccans disagree with these beliefs, accepting the findings of human sexuality researchers that a homosexual orientation is normal and natural for a minority of adults. Further, an adult sexual orientation not chosen and cannot be changed.

yes, conservative........

~ Wiccans would have to abandon many traditional biblical teachings in order to consider themselves to be Christian. However, millions of Americans already reject major portions of the Bible, and still consider themselves to be Christians... These might include: genocide, human slavery, burning some hookers alive, whipping children with a rod, raping female prisoners of war, execution of non-virgin brides, executing people who work on the Sabbath, executing sexually active persons with a homosexual orientation, executing religious minorities, etc."

those things (as far as i am aware) are in the old testiment, unless you have scripture in the new testiment?

many christians argue that jesus freed us from the rules and the laws of the old covernant

 

[Faint]

thats fair enough, but would you care to define what it is to be a christian

Without going into the dictionary, I would only apply the term Christian to someone who accepts the Bible (OT & NT) in it's entirety, without being selective about which parts they do or do not believe in. After all, nowhere in the Bible does it say that you can form your own opinion about what is written. This acceptance in toto also involves following all the rules given (or disregarding those that Jesus more or less overturned), and utilizing reasonable (not creative) interpretation of translated passages. This is probably the fundamental point that we disagree on here. As you said...

whilest i agree with some of these, i do not believe in all of them - i would say the absolute beliefs you must adhere to to claim yourself a christian would be:
jesus as lord and saviour, incarnation, resurrection, virgin birth, heaven and hellsatan and salvation

Ultimately, I really don't think Christianity allows for wicca.

some wiccans see the god and the goddess as being aspects of a higher (unknown) deity - for reference, this means i see it as being a monotheistic religion

And some wiccans (dianic) believe only in the goddess and reject the idea of a superior male deity. From my understanding, wicca is based on religious practices/beliefs that pre-date Christianity, however, there was not a comprehensive book on wicca until the 1900s. To quote wikipedia again "it is thought that much, if not all, of Wiccan theology was established no earlier than the 1920s. Since its founding, various related Wiccan traditions have evolved, or been adapted from, the form established by Gardner, which came to be called Gardnerian Wicca." With this in mind, it seems clear that wiccans vary in their beliefs and practices since they do not have a unifying book other that Gardner's to guide them. Therefore, wicca can be combined with a variety of religions. However, Christianity (whose rules are more clearly defined) is not so compatible, and does not allow for the adherents to be flexible in their personal belief. God doesn't play well with others (according to scripture). It's either God's way, or the highway (to hell). AC/DC understands what I mean. Anyway, this is why it's a contradiction.

 

[Mike182]

Without going into the dictionary, I would only apply the term Christian to someone who accepts the Bible (OT & NT) in it's entirety, without being selective about which parts they do or do not believe in. After all, nowhere in the Bible does it say that you can form your own opinion about what is written. This acceptance in toto also involves following all the rules given (or disregarding those that Jesus more or less overturned), and utilizing reasonable (not creative) interpretation of translated passages. This is probably the fundamental point that we disagree on here. As you said...

i think we can agree that this is the place of disagreement

simply, i think that anyone who believes in Jesus is a christian, and so i feel that your statement that i (and others) cannot be of both the christian path and the wiccan path not offensive, but hurtful

 

[Faint]

i think we can agree that this is the place of disagreement

simply, i think that anyone who believes in Jesus is a christian, and so i feel that your statement that i (and others) cannot be of both the christian path and the wiccan path not offensive, but hurtful

Mr.182, I understand what you're saying, and while it does not please me that you (or others) feel hurt, I still disagree on this point and will not retract what I said. Does an inherent contradiction imply what you believe is a "false faith"? Of course not. Faith is simply 'firm belief in something for which there is no proof' (Merriam-Webster). You can have "faith" in anything you want, no matter how patently unreasonable or absurd I (or anyone else) may think it is. You can even choose to have faith that the world was created last Thursday by Queen Mauve the housecat, for example. But be aware that when you choose to have faith in such things as these, and then declare such faith to others, while at the same time using said faith to argue/debate some other point, you are in effect opening yourself to criticism from people like me.

 

[Mike182]

Mr.182, I understand what you're saying, and while it does not please me that you (or others) feel hurt, I still disagree on this point and will not retract what I said. Does an inherent contradiction imply what you believe is a "false faith"? Of course not. Faith is simply 'firm belief in something for which there is no proof' (Merriam-Webster). You can have "faith" in anything you want, no matter how patently unreasonable or absurd I (or anyone else) may think it is. You can even choose to have faith that the world was created last Thursday by Queen Mauve the housecat, for example. But be aware that when you choose to have faith in such things as these, and then declare such faith to others, while at the same time using said faith to argue/debate some other point, you are in effect opening yourself to criticism from people like me.

yes i have interprited parts of the bible to allow myself this combination, but that does take away from the validity of my claim to christianity, and nor does it take away my claim to wicca

i accept that faith in any belief when declared is then open to criticism, but i am saying that the basics of christianity and wicca are not contradictions in my mind, and so i can label myself as a christian wiccan.

 

[Faint]

yes i have interprited parts of the bible to allow myself this combination, but that does take away from the validity of my claim to christianity, and nor does it take away my claim to wicca

i accept that faith in any belief when declared is then open to criticism, but i am saying that the basics of christianity and wicca are not contradictions in my mind, and so i can label myself as a christian wiccan.

Very well. In your mind, you can think anything you want. And meanwhile, I can label myself a jack o'lantern. But that doesn't make the label appropriate or reasonable. As I have provided a few details as to why I think this is in fact a definite contradiction, can you provide any passages from the Bible that show it is otherwise (i.e. where God allows personal religious choice or adherence to an alternate religion)? Show me some of these, and I will reconsider. Otherwise, I think this debate is at an end.

 

[Mike182]

here is an interesting article that shows how the pagan religion is not alien to the christian one:

http://www.wicca.com/celtic/wicca/christian.htm

 

[Faint]

here is an interesting article that shows how the pagan religion is not alien to the christian one:

http://www.wicca.com/celtic/wicca/christian.htm

Thanks, but the author is also being selective with what he puts in his religious shopping cart, and the passages he quotes do not counter what I've already said.

I should probably tell you though, that I personally have more respect for wicca than I do for Christianity (or any abrahamic religion for that matter). I am not trying to discourage you from choosing what you like from the Bible (though I will likely disagree with it) or from any other book that you read. And I am certainly not advising you to become a hardcore Christian fundamentalist. What I am arguing is the terminology.

Why do you need this label anyway? Why try to limit and pigeon hole yourself with a definition? Why not just be Mike (assuming that's your name)?

 

[Mike182]

Why do you need this label anyway? Why try to limit and pigeon hole yourself with a definition? Why not just be Mike (assuming that's your name)?

lol, for as much as i can assure you, it is indeed my name

its a mix of beliefs, but i still accept the bible as how to live, but i do not accept the bible as directly from God, and i have no way of varifying who actually wrote it, or who changed it along the way - im sure you of all people understand where im coming form on that one.

so although i accept the bible, i don't adhere to it 100% (i don't adhere to the OT at all)

no one can claim my faith in christianity is invalid, and no one can claim my wiccan practices and beliefs are invalid, so why not call them what they are, they are a blend of christian wiccan beliefs

 

[barnabus]

A man cannot serve to masters. He either loves the one and hates the other, or he hates the and loves the other.

 

[barnabus]

bad composition, blast