Christian: The Book Of Mormon vs. The Holy Bible

[Endless]

That's funny Jonny because i disagree they teach the same gospel, i also believe the Bible is the word of God because it fortold the distant future. The book of Mormon as far as i know has no such credibility in it.
I also agree with Steve's statements.

 

[jonny]

That's funny Jonny because i disagree they teach the same gospel, i also believe the Bible is the word of God because it fortold the distant future. The book of Mormon as far as i know has no such credibility in it.
I also agree with Steve's statements.

Perhaps you could start with defining the gospel that you believe the bible teaches and we can go from there. Please use scriptures to reference your belief in what the gospel of the Bible is.

 

[nutshell]

Endless Steve

Have either of you read the Book of Mormon (and I don't mean from a propaganda spouting anti-mormon website or church)?

 

[Aqualung]

I believe he mislead people and taught alot that goes against the Bible, this is why i dont believe his book and the Bible should be regarded as complimenting each other.

Wow! Look at all that proof!! :bow: I stand in awe yet again of you!

This is my OT class.

 

[Squirt]

Id be interested in debating whether LDS doctrine along with what LDS "prophets" and J.Smith taught and believed is biblical.

I'm not interested in trying to defend these men's opinions when these opinions do not constitute LDS doctrine. As far as I'm concerned, that's a total waste of time. Are you of the opinion that every word ever spoken by the ancient prophets found its way into the Bible? I would hope you're not that naive. I'll stand up for LDS doctrine as not contradicting Biblical doctrine any day of the week. In addition to the Bible (we use the KJV), we consider the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price to be doctrinally binding. That will give you three sources of official doctrine to critique, and if you want to play fair, that ought to be enough.

 

[Squirt]

That's funny Jonny because i disagree they teach the same gospel, i also believe the Bible is the word of God because it fortold the distant future. The book of Mormon as far as i know has no such credibility in it.
I also agree with Steve's statements.

As far as you know? And just what do you think you know, beyond the fact that they don't teach the same gospel? Tell me, please, what is the main difference between the gospel as taught in the Book of Mormon and the gospel as taught in the Bible? How about a sampling of verses from the Book of Mormon that you believe teach a different gospel. I'm not looking for a simple cut and paste job from an anti-Mormon website. I'm looking for your own thoughts, your own opinions and examples.

Have you even read the Book of Mormon? Oh, never mind... You obviously haven't. If you had, you would know that it is full of prophesy concerning the future. You'd know that Jesus Christ is mentioned hundreds of times throughout the book. I'd suggest that before further spouting off about something you know virtually nothing about, you go study up and come back when you're ready to actually support your opinions with evidence.

 

[dan]

Ok im Christian and do not believe your "prophet" was a genuine prophet. I believe he mislead people and taught alot that goes against the Bible, this is why i dont believe his book and the Bible should be regarded as complimenting each other.

That's the same reason the Jews killed Jesus.

 

[Endless]

Gospel meaning 'good news'.
Bible teaches that Jesus went around preaching the gospel:

Mt 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people.

What was this good news about the Kingdom that he was telling people?

Firstly Bible teaches that John the Baptist came to prepare the way for Jesus, John taught:

Mt 3:2 and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!"

Jesus also after he had been tempted in the desert began teaching the gospel:

Mt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Again, Jesus preaching that the Kingdom of heaven was at hand and that the people had to repent turning from their sins.

The disciples went out preaching the gospel:

Lu 9:6 So they departed and went through the towns, preaching the gospel and healing everywhere.

What was the gospel they preached?

Mt 10:7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

The same as what Jesus had been teaching.

So when exactly did this Kingdom of heaven arrive? Jesus is teaching that it was at hand - ie. About to come. So what was it? I believe it was when Jesus would start reigning in the hearts of believers and this only when he accomplished everything on calvary. The kingdom of heaven then spread to the earth as we were bought by God and became part of God's family.

So the good news that Jesus preached was that the Kingdom of Heaven was coming - the gospels tell of the good news of Jesus and how the Kingdom of Heaven came by what he accomplished on the cross.

Mr 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

The good news of Jesus Christ.

Paul writes the following:

1Co 15:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.
6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep.
7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.
8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

1Co 15:47 The first man (Adam) was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

So what exactly is the good news of the gospel?

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,
20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Jesus' blood was shed when he died on the cross - the blood symbolises his death.

Le 17:11 'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.'

Jesus life being poured out upon the cross (the alter) the blood of Jesus purifying us from our sins. It was perfect blood - a perfect life that died. A life in which there was no sin - pure and spotless.

2Co 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Jesus took on himself the sin of the world. Your sin and my sin - he allowed himself to take the punishment of that sin so that we would not have to be punished. Jesus was made sin for us - he died with all our sin and was judged and punished for the sin he bore.

Col 2:13 ¶ And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

The laws (handwritten requirements) that the Jews had been given by God were impossible to keep - it showed man how sinful he was. The sacrifices had to be performed time and time again to atone for the people's sins. The Bible teaches that all these were shadows of what was to come - namely Jesus and he fulfilled everything when he died on the cross because it was on the cross that he took it all out of the way.

Heb 10:1 ¶ For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins.

Heb 10:10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,

Jesus was the good things to come - the gospel, the good news of what he accomplished by his sacrifice on the cross for us. It was this that the whole Bible is about - God's salvation plan for mankind, the foreshadowing of the sacrifices for sin looking towards the sacrifice that Jesus would make by his death on the cross.
Right from when Adam and Eve sinned in the garden and tried to cover themselves with their own works and God covered them with animal skins (shedding of blood) we have pictures in the Bible of what God was going to do for man. To the passover lamb which was killed and it's shed blood put on the doors so that the wrath of God would pass over those trusting in the the blood. (Exodus 12:6-7) This is the reason why Jesus is referred to throughout the gospels as the lamb of God.

God's salvation plan for mankind was completed when Jesus cried on the cross: 'It is finished' The actual Greek means 'Paid in full' and was used to finish off a transaction. Jesus was saying that he had paid the price in full - a direct reference to him having accomplished what he set out to do. To provide a way out for mankind, that if they trust in his blood, the wrath of God will pass over them - It is as if we had never sinned.

Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

Hope that helps.

 

[dan]

Are you responding to my post from the other thread? I agree almost entirely with your assessment. The only part you neglected was the Resurrection. Without the Resurrection all of it would have been meaningless. I feel the Resurrection is the better part of the good news, because it is what makes eternal life possible. They're both crucial, but I prefer to focus on the Resurrection rather than the death. Together they give us the good news.

 

[dan]

Ah, I see what your post is for. Well, allow me to share some of what the Book of Mormon teaches about this.

Alma 5:21 - I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be saved; for there can no man be saved except his garments• are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified• until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins.

I Nephi 11:32 - And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me again, saying: Look! And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the Son of the everlasting God was judged• of the world; and I saw and bear record.
33 And I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted• up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world.

Mosiah 3:15 - And many signs, and wonders, and types, and shadows showed he unto them, concerning his coming; and also holy prophets spake unto them concerning his coming; and yet they hardened their hearts, and understood not that the law• of Moses availeth nothing except• it were through the atonement• of his blood.

Alma 22:14 - And since man had fallen he could not merit• anything of himself; but the sufferings and death of Christ atone• for their sins, through faith and repentance, and so forth; and that he breaketh the bands of death, that the grave• shall have no victory, and that the sting of death should be swallowed up in the hopes of glory; and Aaron did expound all these things unto the king.

Helaman 5:9 - O remember, remember, my sons, the words• which king Benjamin spake unto his people; yea, remember that there is no other way nor means whereby man can be saved, only through the atoning• blood of Jesus Christ, who shall come; yea, remember that he cometh to redeem the world.

There are a hundred more just like these, but this should suffice. What is this grand contradiction you speak of?


http://scriptures.lds.org/themes/graphics/spacer.gif

 

[Endless]

Firstly who in the world is King Benjamin?? Don't remember him in the Bible.
Second you are correct about the ressurection - though i assumed that both doctrines were the same on this issue.
Thirdly, what you have posted is not the whole Morman doctrine on the atonement is it - there are others things which are not in the bible nor in any teachings to the early church.
For example - what about the Garden of Gethsemane? Where are you taught that the primary atonement took place? You are taught are you not that the cross was just the finishing touches - but most of the atonement happened before the cross?

What are you taught regarding receiving of the atonement - how do your receive this atonement?

 

[dan]

Firstly who in the world is King Benjamin?? Don't remember him in the Bible.

I wasn't quotign from the Bible, I was quoting from the Book of Mormon. you asked what we believe and I responded with scripture.

Second you are correct about the ressurection - though i assumed that both doctrines were the same on this issue.

They are equally important, but I prefer to focus more on one than the other, as it is a little more "good news"ish than the death of the Lord. I don't take anything away from the cross, but I prefer thinking of life over death.

Thirdly, what you have posted is not the whole Morman doctrine on the atonement is it - there are others things which are not in the bible nor in any teachings to the early church.
For example - what about the Garden of Gethsemane? Where are you taught that the primary atonement took place? You are taught are you not that the cross was just the finishing touches - but most of the atonement happened before the cross?

The scriptures teach us that the Garden of Gethsemane is where it started, but the entire weight placed upon Him in the Garden was again placed upon Him on the cross, where he finalized His entire mission. We are not taught to view one location as more important than another. In addition, there is nothing in the scriptures to say that the Atonement must be confined to the cross. That's a Catholic interpretation of the Bible and it is false.

What are you taught regarding receiving of the atonement - how do your receive this atonement?

Exact same as the Bible - be born again of the water and of the Spirit.

 

[jonny]

Hi Endless,

Thanks for taking the time to put that together. It gives us a great place to start.

Gospel meaning 'good news'.

Thanks. I agree completely. I believe that Dan pointed this out in another thread earlier today.

Bible teaches that Jesus went around preaching the gospel:

[font=&quot]Mt 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people.[/font]

The Book of Mormon actually prophesied that this is how the gospel would be preached. In 1 Nephi 22:11 it states, "Wherefore, the Lord God will proceed to make bare his arm in the eyes of all the nations, in bringing about his covenants and his gospel unto those who are of the house of Israel."

What was this good news about the Kingdom that he was telling people?

Firstly Bible teaches that John the Baptist came to prepare the way for Jesus, John taught:

[font=&quot]Mt 3:2 and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!"[/font]

Compare that with this scripture of prophesy in the Book of Mormon

42 Nephi 31: 4 - Wherefore, I would that ye should remember that I have spoken unto you concerning that prophet which the Lord showed unto me, that should baptize the Lamb of God, which should take away the sins of the world.

Jesus also after he had been tempted in the desert began teaching the gospel:

[font=&quot]Mt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."[/font]

Again, Jesus preaching that the Kingdom of heaven was at hand and that the people had to repent turning from their sins.

Repentence is one of the core doctrines taught in the Book of Mormon. 2 Nephi 31: 11 continues with the following command: "And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son." In verse 17 we read, "Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost."

Mosiah 16:13 sums things up pretty well - "And now, ought ye not to tremble and repent of your sins, and remember that only in and through Christ ye can be saved?"

The disciples went out preaching the gospel:

[font=&quot]Lu 9:6 So they departed and went through the towns, preaching the gospel and healing everywhere.[/font]

What was the gospel they preached?

The same as what Jesus had been teaching.

I agree with you. Christ also called disciples to preach his Gospel to those in the Book of Mormon - following the same pattern that he followed in Jerusalem. We read the testimony of one of those in 3 Nephi 5:13 - Behold, I am a disciple of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I have been called of him to declare his word among his people, that they might have everlasting life.

So when exactly did this Kingdom of heaven arrive? Jesus is teaching that it was at hand - ie. About to come. So what was it? I believe it was when Jesus would start reigning in the hearts of believers and this only when he accomplished everything on calvary. The kingdom of heaven then spread to the earth as we were bought by God and became part of God's family.

So the good news that Jesus preached was that the Kingdom of Heaven was coming - the gospels tell of the good news of Jesus and how the Kingdom of Heaven came by what he accomplished on the cross.

Alma 5:48,50 preaches this exact message - "I say unto you, that I know of myself that whatsoever I shall say unto you, concerning that which is to come, is true; and I say unto you, that I know that Jesus Christ shall come, yea, the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace, and mercy, and truth. And behold, it is he that cometh to take away the sins of the world, yea, the sins of every man who steadfastly believeth on his name....Yea, thus saith the Spirit: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, for the kingdom of heaven is soon at hand; yea, the Son of God cometh in his glory, in his might, majesty, power, and dominion. Yea, my beloved brethren, I say unto you, that the Spirit saith: Behold the glory of the King of all the earth; and also the King of heaven shall very soon shine forth among all the children of men."

So what exactly is the good news of the gospel?

Jesus' blood was shed when he died on the cross - the blood symbolises his death.

No disagreement there.

Jesus life being poured out upon the cross (the alter) the blood of Jesus purifying us from our sins. It was perfect blood - a perfect life that died. A life in which there was no sin - pure and spotless.

The Book of Mormon does not disagree with you on this point.

Jesus took on himself the sin of the world. Your sin and my sin - he allowed himself to take the punishment of that sin so that we would not have to be punished. Jesus was made sin for us - he died with all our sin and was judged and punished for the sin he bore.

Mosiah 3:11 - For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam, who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who haveignorantly sinned.

The laws (handwritten requirements) that the Jews had been given by God were impossible to keep - it showed man how sinful he was. The sacrifices had to be performed time and time again to atone for the people's sins. The Bible teaches that all these were shadows of what was to come - namely Jesus and he fulfilled everything when he died on the cross because it was on the cross that he took it all out of the way.

The Book of Mormon also teaches that the Law of Moses was fulfilled through Christ.

In 2 Nephi 25:24, before Christ came, we read, "And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled."

Later, after Christ came, he taught, "And even so will I to as many as shall believe on my name, for behold, by me redemption cometh, and in me is the law of Moses fulfilled." (3 Nephi 9:17)

Jesus was the good things to come - the gospel, the good news of what he accomplished by his sacrifice on the cross for us. It was this that the whole Bible is about - God's salvation plan for mankind, the foreshadowing of the sacrifices for sin looking towards the sacrifice that Jesus would make by his death on the cross.
Right from when Adam and Eve sinned in the garden and tried to cover themselves with their own works and God covered them with animal skins (shedding of blood) we have pictures in the Bible of what God was going to do for man. To the passover lamb which was killed and it's shed blood put on the doors so that the wrath of God would pass over those trusting in the the blood. (Exodus 12:6-7) This is the reason why Jesus is referred to throughout the gospels as the lamb of God.

That is also the focus of the Book of Mormon. Early in the book, one of the prophets taught, "And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children of may know to what source they may look for a remission their sins." For 600 years, the prophets taught people to look forward with faith to Christ. The Old Testament does not clearly state that the people are looking towards Christ. This is why so many people believe the words of the Old Testament, but not the New Testament. The Book of Mormon makes what you described above crystal clear.

God's salvation plan for mankind was completed when Jesus cried on the cross: 'It is finished' The actual Greek means 'Paid in full' and was used to finish off a transaction. Jesus was saying that he had paid the price in full - a direct reference to him having accomplished what he set out to do. To provide a way out for mankind, that if they trust in his blood, the wrath of God will pass over them - It is as if we had never sinned.

3 Nephi 27:20 - Now this is the commandment:Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.

Hope that helps.

It did. Together we have demonstrated that the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the Bible and the Book of Mormon is identical. Thank you.

In conclusion, I'd like to share my favorite scripture from the Book of Mormon:

"Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastnesshttp://scriptures.lds.org/2_ne/31/20a#20a in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life." 2 Nephi 31:20

 

[dan]

Ah, thanks for going through that. I've been busy, so I wasn't looking forward to having to do it. I hope this lets everyone know that what they've been breastfed by Anti-Mormon hate mongers has very little (okay, nothing) to do with what we actually believe. Any other concerns?

 

[waldo]

lol, you guys are all funny:biglaugh:
you guys are taking this way too serious:bounce

 

[dan]

Who is taking it too seriously?

We are in a forum for religious debate. We are attempting to engage in debate.

 

[jonny]

lol, you guys are all funny:biglaugh:
you guys are taking this way too serious:bounce

Can we get a smilie that's flipping people off? I promise only to use it to be funny.

 

[waldo]

Who is taking it too seriously?

We are in a forum for religious debate. We are attempting to engage in debate.

yeah, but you guys are getting so personal, insultive, and angry.

 

[Geoffthe3rd]

The BOM i believe is claimed to be the missing books found by an angel given to the first prophet Joseph Smith (sorry if i got it wrong).
1. First off the Bible was put together by the Catholic Church through the Holy Spirit, in which they decerned which book was scriptural and which was not
2. If you claim to base the BOM from the Bible and the teachings of Christ, and you believe that the God is a never changing God, then you would see that the BOM is not Holy, because it contradicts repeatedly with HB.
3. Which book do you study from more? The Bible or the BOM, cause almost every Christian denomination i know is based on the BOM and believes the Bible is what God gave to Man
4. I do not believe that Joseph Smith was Historically accurate when creating the BOM, especially since the Jewish and American cultures have near to nothing in common

 

[jonny]

Could you show me the repeated contractions between the Book of Mormon and the Bible? Then we can go forward.