Christian responsibility to beg for mercy

[angellous_evangellous]

He has given us the means. It is our responsibility to use them.

Still not a reason to forgo begging God to change his mind.

We have the means... but do we have the ability and the will? God can accomplish effortlessly what we can accomplish only by means of great sacrafice and toil. We didn't create ourselves with the ability to sin. Who in their right mind would create evil and then watch from affar the sufferings of the powerless?

 

[evearael]

A good parent would not place a child in a briar patch full of certain misery, and being able to effortlessly prevent a child's suffering, continue to allow the child to endure evil.

A good parent will give their child a chance to walk, knowing full well they will likely fall.

Evil for growth is a perverse dualism. We can grow from the good alone.

I always saw Christianity as dualistic with the opposition of God and Satan, but that is just an outsider's perspective. Good cannot exist without evil to give it contrast. Explain how growth is possible from good alone. Explain how good can exist without the contrast of evil. Explain how the struggle between good and evil is perverse (in my humble opinion, the perversity lies in using free will to choose evil over good).

 

[evearael]

Still not a reason to forgo begging God to change his mind.

You may beg all you wish. I beg for the wisdom and ability to help others more effectively.

but do we have the ability and the will?

I believe so.

We didn't create ourselves with the ability to sin.

By that logic and by choosing to bear children, shouldn't the parents shoulder the blame for bringing a child into the world knowing full well they would sin?

Who in their right mind would create evil and then watch from affar the sufferings of the powerless?

By choosing to bear a child, one chooses to bring another life into this world with the capacity for evil and to bear suffering. Is that a moral choice to you, and if so, how?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I believe so.

I'm not a complete pessimist, nor a nihilist, but the ending of evil IMO is the power of God alone. If we can end it ourselves, we have no need for God and we can worship ourselves.

By that logic and by choosing to bear children, shouldn't the parents shoulder the blame for bringing a child into the world knowing full well they would sin?

From my logic, God alone is responsible because God created humanity with the capacity for sin. God also gave us the desire to have children and the command to do so. So no, I don't think that parents are to blame... unless, of course, they breed children to sin - like a terrorist group having children to be future soldiers. It's gross, but it does happen.

By choosing to bear a child, one chooses to bring another life into this world with the capacity for evil and to bear suffering. Is that a moral choice to you, and if so, how?

One cannot use my logic to come to that conclusion.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Good cannot exist without evil to give it contrast.

In the begginng, God.

Explain how growth is possible from good alone.

A meaningful metaphor is impossible in this fallen world. The myth of the garden of Eden before the serpent is introduced is the only metaphor of a world without sin. Growth occurs from walking with God. God creates man and woman without evil and walks with them. They can learn only good things from God and grow only in the good.

Explain how good can exist without the contrast of evil. Explain how the struggle between good and evil is perverse (in my humble opinion, the perversity lies in using free will to choose evil over good).

It is perverse to think that evil allows good to exist by contrast. Good can exist all by itself, a good in and of itself. If there is no evil to choose, one can only choose the good.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Explain how the struggle between good and evil is perverse (in my humble opinion, the perversity lies in using free will to choose evil over good).

The struggle between good and evil is noble. The thought that good can only exist because of evil is perverse.

I agree that for us, perversity lies in using free will to choose evil over good. So I consider a philosophy that considers good to exist only in contrast to evil to be perverse. A good can be good in and of itself. That good is God.

 

[evearael]

If we can end it ourselves, we have no need for God and we can worship ourselves.

Our ability to end it is a gift from God, and I am most grateful for it.

From my logic, God alone is responsible because God created humanity with the capacity for sin. God also gave us the desire to have children and the command to do so. So no, I don't think that parents are to blame... unless, of course, they breed children to sin - like a terrorist group having children to be future soldiers. It's gross, but it does happen.

So do you give God full credit for every good act of humankind?

One cannot use my logic to come to that conclusion.

Who in their right mind would create evil and then watch from affar the sufferings of the powerless?

Is it good to create good and then watch from affar the blessings that stem from it? Let me clarify my point... is it more evil to create evil than good to create good, acknowledging the choice a person has between them? I feel the answer to that question stems from the following: do you see this world as having more evil than good?

In the begginng, God.

Do you feel good is an expansive enough term to adequately describe God?

A meaningful metaphor is impossible in this fallen world.

Again from Ecclesiates, 3:1...
"There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under heaven"
I do not view the fall as negative. It is simply a metaphor for the end of the innocence of childhood as applied for humanity. Adam was created outside of the garden, and then placed within it... he knew the alternative and chose it anyway. I don't see leaving the garden in any more of a negative light than I see leaving home and striking out on my own as an adult.

The myth of the garden of Eden before the serpent is introduced is the only metaphor of a world without sin. Growth occurs from walking with God. God creates man and woman without evil and walks with them. They can learn only good things from God and grow only in the good.

If growth was possible by simply 'walking with God' in the garden, then couldn't the exercise in free will, eating of the apple, be seen as the logical result of said growth?
Without evil there is no appreciation for good.

It is perverse to think that evil allows good to exist by contrast.

Again, how so?

Good can exist all by itself, a good in and of itself. If there is no evil to choose, one can only choose the good.

If one is only has a single choice, how can their choice be good or evil? The choice simply exists, void of morality.

Here is another question... would you prefer to be back in the garden? Do you believe you would've learned "only good things from God and grow only in the good"? Do you feel that all that learning and walking with Godcouldhave led to any other choice? How do you reconcile blaming God for the evil in the world and then claiming that Adam and Eve "can learn only good things from God and grow only in the good"?

 

[evearael]

The struggle between good and evil is noble.

I agree that for us, perversity lies in using free will to choose evil over good.

I believe we agree on the important parts... though I still maintain that the non-existance of evil choices results in morally neutral decisions.

That good is God.

Then you answer my question in advance.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Our ability to end it is a gift from God, and I am most grateful for it

What gift is that?

So do you give God full credit for every good act of humankind?

Yes.

Is it good to create good and then watch from affar the blessings that stem from it? Let me clarify my point... is it more evil to create evil than good to create good, acknowledging the choice a person has between them? I feel the answer to that question stems from the following: do you see this world as having more evil than good?

I don't think that your question makes sense.

Do you feel good is an expansive enough term to adequately describe God?

Yes. If God exists, I hope that God is good. I do not argue that God is only "good," but I do argue that God is the only Being powerful enough to be good in and of itself.

Again from Ecclesiates, 3:1...
"There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under heaven"
I do not view the fall as negative. It is simply a metaphor for the end of the innocence of childhood as applied for humanity. Adam was created outside of the garden, and then placed within it... he knew the alternative and chose it anyway. I don't see leaving the garden in any more of a negative light than I see leaving home and striking out on my own as an adult.

Then we read the story incredibly differently. As it stands, it is the story of how sin entered the world and thus referred to as "the fall." If you do not view it as negative, you should not refer to it as "the fall".

If growth was possible by simply 'walking with God' in the garden, then couldn't the exercise in free will, eating of the apple, be seen as the logical result of said growth?
Without evil there is no appreciation for good.

I will not reduce myself to this dualism.

Again, how so?

It does not recognize the power of God to be good in and of Himself, nor does it allow anything else to be inherently good.

If one is only has a single choice, how can their choice be good or evil? The choice simply exists, void of morality.

One can only have a good to choose: one good or another good. I agree, we would have no need for morality as we know it if evil did not exist - every choice would be moral.

Here is another question... would you prefer to be back in the garden?

Who in their right mind wouldn't?! If God is good, and it's truly paradise, bring it on!

Do you believe you would've learned "only good things from God and grow only in the good"?

Yes. If God is good and there is no evil, and we can grow in perfect knowledge.

Do you feel that all that learning and walking with Godcouldhave led to any other choice?

If there were no possibility of choosing evil, then we would not have had the choice to sin. In the context of the story... no.

How do you reconcile blaming God for the evil in the world and then claiming that Adam and Eve "can learn only good things from God and grow only in the good"?

Because God gave humans the ability to sin.

I did warn you that I was using the story as a metaphor only before sin was introduced: "The myth of the garden of Eden before the serpent is introduced is the only metaphor of a world without sin."

I was using the pre-sin metaphor to try and explain how - if God chose - that we could have grown with God learning only good things without the presence of evil. We could even struggle and toil to learn good things as we choose good from good.

Unfortunately, God created us with the ability to sin. Thus our wretched situation.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Euripides (480-406 BCE) “That which is good we learn and recognize, yet practice not the lesson, some from sloth, and some from preferring pleasure in the stead of duty.” Hippolytus 379-83

Plato (427-347 BCE) “... most people... say that many, while knowing what is best, refuse to perform it...” Protagorus 352d

Aristotle (384-22 BCE) “The man... who does not think the action right before he comes under the influence of passion” NE 7.2

Plautus (c 254-184 BCE) “I know what sort I ought to be, but I couldn’t be it, poor fool.” Trinummas

Ovid (43BC-17CE) “I see the better and approve it; but I follow the worse.” Metamorphosis 7.21

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

If you believe this, don't you have the responsibility to beg God to change God's mind and become more humane?

God's mind is made. He will not change what He has written in the Bible. I wish that everyone could go to Heaven, but that's just not the way it is. I'm so sorry you don't like what God has planned.

Our responsibility is not to pray to God and ask Him to change his mind. Our responsibility is to get out there and tell people about Christ and salvation. We must teach for others to learn. If all Christians were doing what they're supposed to do, everyone in the world would know about God. There are very few who don't as it stands, only those in extrememely rural and isolated areas. You may hate the thought of others going to Hell as much as I do, but I know that God is wise and he has a plan. I also know that it is my job to be an example to everyone I come in contact with. I am by no means perfect, but people who are not Christians will notice something differant about those who are, and they will be curious about what makes us this way. In that way, you can convert people. And the more people converted, the more will become missionaries and teach in all places of the world. We must be willing to accept God's plan, and to teach everyone we know. We can't just say "I don't like it, so it must not be so." And that's the bottom line.

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

As soon as you give me a solid verse supporting Universal Salvation, I'll believe in it.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

As soon as you give me a solid verse supporting Universal Salvation, I'll believe in it.

Romans 9

14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[b] but on God, who has mercy.

21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25As indeed he says in Hosea,

"Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,'
and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'"
26"And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,'
there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"

1 Tim 2
3This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man[a] Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

God's mind is made. He will not change what He has written in the Bible. I wish that everyone could go to Heaven, but that's just not the way it is. I'm so sorry you don't like what God has planned.

Our responsibility is not to pray to God and ask Him to change his mind. Our responsibility is to get out there and tell people about Christ and salvation. We must teach for others to learn. If all Christians were doing what they're supposed to do, everyone in the world would know about God. There are very few who don't as it stands, only those in extrememely rural and isolated areas. You may hate the thought of others going to Hell as much as I do, but I know that God is wise and he has a plan. I also know that it is my job to be an example to everyone I come in contact with. I am by no means perfect, but people who are not Christians will notice something differant about those who are, and they will be curious about what makes us this way. In that way, you can convert people. And the more people converted, the more will become missionaries and teach in all places of the world. We must be willing to accept God's plan, and to teach everyone we know. We can't just say "I don't like it, so it must not be so." And that's the bottom line.

Luke 18

1And he told them a parable to the effect that they ought always to pray and not lose heart. 2He said, "In a certain city there was a judge who neither feared God nor respected man. 3And there was a widow in that city who kept coming to him and saying, 'Give me justice against my adversary.' 4For a while he refused, but afterward he said to himself, 'Though I neither fear God nor respect man, 5yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will give her justice, so that she will not beat me down by her continual coming.'" 6And the Lord said, "Hear what the unrighteous judge says. 7And will not God give justice to his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them? 8I tell you, he will give justice to them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?"

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

Luke 18

1And he told them a parable to the effect that they ought always to pray and not lose heart. 2He said, "In a certain city there was a judge who neither feared God nor respected man. 3And there was a widow in that city who kept coming to him and saying, 'Give me justice against my adversary.' 4For a while he refused, but afterward he said to himself, 'Though I neither fear God nor respect man, 5yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will give her justice, so that she will not beat me down by her continual coming.'" 6And the Lord said, "Hear what the unrighteous judge says. 7And will not God give justice to his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them? 8I tell you, he will give justice to them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?"

God isn't the genie in the lamp, he isn't just going to grant our wishes. What makes you think God is going to change HIS WORD that has been around for THOUSANDS OF YEARS. Wouldn't he know when he wrote it that you would pray to Him to "change his mind"? And if he intended of changing his mind, what was the point of writing that version of the Bible? Why not just go ahead and say "you're all getting saved"?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

God isn't the genie in the lamp, he isn't just going to grant our wishes. What makes you think God is going to change HIS WORD that has been around for THOUSANDS OF YEARS. Wouldn't he know when he wrote it that you would pray to Him to "change his mind"? And if he intended of changing his mind, what was the point of writing that version of the Bible? Why not just go ahead and say "you're all getting saved"?

My best guess is God does what God wants.

Besides, given our current state of misery, I can't see any harm in:

"Love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, and strenth, and love your neighbor as yourself."

We can love God and yet beg him to change his mind. What sort of pitiless monster would not do the same, believing that God is going to judge the world and send people to hell?

Did not Abraham beg for Sodom and Gammorah? Deut 9.18-20?

 

[evearael]

What gift is that?

The ability to choose...

So do you give God full credit for every good act of humankind?

Yes.

We agree on this.

I don't think that your question makes sense.

We've established that we both believe that God is responsible for both good and evil in this world. Which is more dominant in this world... good or evil?

Then we read the story incredibly differently. As it stands, it is the story of how sin entered the world and thus referred to as "the fall." If you do not view it as negative, you should not refer to it as "the fall".

Yes, we read the story differently. I referred to it in the same manner you did for simplicities sake, not as a reflection of my beliefs on the matter.

I will not reduce myself to this dualism.

I still do not see where you are finding dualism. I do not wish to offend you... just curious.

It does not recognize the power of God to be good in and of Himself, nor does it allow anything else to be inherently good.

My personal take on God is that our vocabulary is far too limited to begin to adequately describe Him.

One can only have a good to choose: one good or another good. I agree, we would have no need for morality as we know it if evil did not exist - every choice would be moral.

"Morality as we know it" is the key part of that statement. I don't think it is truly possible to prove either of us to be correct on that basis... but it is still fun to try!

Who in their right mind wouldn't?! If God is good, and it's truly paradise, bring it on!

Yes. If God is good and there is no evil, and we can grow in perfect knowledge.

If there were no possibility of choosing evil, then we would not have had the choice to sin. In the context of the story... no.

Fair enough.

Because God gave humans the ability to sin.

At what point do you feel God gave us the ability to sin?

I did warn you that I was using the story as a metaphor only before sin was introduced

Yes, you did.

I was using the pre-sin metaphor to try and explain how - if God chose - that we could have grown with God learning only good things without the presence of evil. We could even struggle and toil to learn good things as we choose good from good.

Unfortunately, God created us with the ability to sin. Thus our wretched situation.

I suppose the crux of the matter for me is I do not see the capacity for struggle and toil without existance of evil. What is the struggle against? What resistance exists to cause us to toil? My view of evil is defined by the need to struggle against in and as the resistance that keeps us distant from God... and it is in that struggle and that toil towards God that we find spiritual growth. Furthermore, I do not view our situation as wretched. I see profound beauty in creation. I am awed and grateful that God would grant us free will, even knowing that we could use it for evil, and allow us this opportunity for spiritual growth... giving us this chance to express our adoration for Him by struggling against evil and toiling for good.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Which is more dominant in this world... good or evil?

I don't have enough evidence to come to a conclusion.

 

[evearael]

I don't have enough evidence to come to a conclusion.

Fair enough. How do you reconcile this with your conception that God is good? (Note that I don't disagree with you, but I do feel that challenging one's beliefs is good for strengthening faith...)

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I do not wish to offend you... just curious.

Likewise, I don't wish to offend you with my rhetoric.

I've tried to put it as simply as I can:

1) We don't need evil to define good.
2) There can be a good in and of itself, and I think that God is the pattern for it. Only God (in my thinking) is good in and of Godself. If I didn't believe in God, I would say that some human actions are good in and of themselves.
3) If we needed evil to define the good we would have an absolute dualism:

a) we would have to say that God and Satan have always existed, "evil" (Satan) being just as powerful as God to give God definition "good"
b) The perfect good would be a balance between good and evil

I can't reduce myself to this worldview because I confess that God is powerful enough to destroy evil.