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angellous_evangellous
Guest
evearael said:
Two things:
1) Recognize that God is good in and of Godself
2) God can remain good despite what God does
Believe me - it's a struggle. Hense the thread: we must beg God to change.
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Two things:
1) Recognize that God is good in and of Godself
2) God can remain good despite what God does
Believe me - it's a struggle. Hense the thread: we must beg God to change.
Likewise, I don't wish to offend you with my rhetoric.
And for this reason, I always adore these discussions with you... even when we disagree.
Aaaah! Now I see where are opinions are diverging!
3) If we needed evil to define the good we would have an absolute dualism:
a) we would have to say that God and Satan have always existed, "evil" (Satan) being just as powerful as God to give God definition "good"
My definition of Satan is different than yours. As Jewscout put it... Satan is God's b****. I do not view Satan as having the free will to rise against God, and I certainly do not view him as being capable of defiance.
I confess that God is powerful enough to destroy evil.
We certainly agree on that.
As the divergence is a result of different theologies, I will bow out of this discussion. It's been fun, frubals when they refresh! :flower2:
And for this reason, I always adore these discussions with you... even when we disagree.
Aaaah! Now I see where are opinions are diverging!
3) If we needed evil to define the good we would have an absolute dualism:
a) we would have to say that God and Satan have always existed, "evil" (Satan) being just as powerful as God to give God definition "good"
My definition of Satan is different than yours. As Jewscout put it... Satan is God's b****. I do not view Satan as having the free will to rise against God, and I certainly do not view him as being capable of defiance.
I confess that God is powerful enough to destroy evil.
We certainly agree on that.
As the divergence is a result of different theologies, I will bow out of this discussion. It's been fun, frubals when they refresh! :flower2:
dawny0826
Mother Heathen
Yeah...maybe so.
But we're given a choice, aren't we?
If we want peace in the afterlife...is it not available for anyone who chooses it?
No, who the heckazola am I to beg GOD to do anything?
I think He made it pretty clear that it's my responsibility to get off my tush and share the gospel. That's my responsiblity as a Christian.
To each his/her own.
I think I'm responsible for looking at myself and making changes within myself. That I KNOW...I have the ability (and authority) to do.
We have Christ.
So, there IS always hope extended to us.
I don't think that we were ever promised that we wouldn't suffer. Suffering is part of the human condition because we're in flesh.
What we were promised is that if our faith, love and obedience is in Christ...regardless of what we face...we're going to be okay.
We were given Christ. God is more than able and more than willing.
Or maybe we should open our hearts and accept the hand that he continually extends to us.
"Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil."[/quote]
The power, mercy and grace of God, in my opinion isn't witheld from us...it's just often times refused.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
angellous_evangellous said:
Again, I think we make a mistake in saying that God and suffering are mutually exclusive. "Why doesn't God end suffering?" is the wrong question to ask. "Where is God in our suffering?" is probably more appropriate. God chooses not to end suffering, because that would make our existence less than human.
cturne
servant of God
If this has already been said, sorry, but it's late and I didn't take time to read the whole thread but when I read the above quote I had to respond.
a.e.: God HAS thrown each and every one of us a life preserver - Jesus Christ. By accepting Jesus Christ as the one who lived a perfect life in our place, suffered and died for our sins and rose again to have victory over death - we have eternal life. If you choose to push the life preserver away and drown anyway, do not blame the thrower of the life preserver!
This world doesn't matter - this is only temporary. All the suffering and death of this world will one day end. When believers die they go to their reward - heaven - where there is no suffering, pain or sadness. That is the goal - not to have some sort of 'utopia' on earth. Read the Bible - it's all in there...
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angellous_evangellous
Guest
It depends entirely on who throws the life preserver. It seems like we have a thrower who could effortlessly lift all of the drowning people on earth out of the water throwing a tiny peice of foam to the drowning victims and merrily sailing away, safe in his ship.cturne said:
If I were you, I would cast away this infantile theology. If the world doesn't matter, then we have no basis for ethics and we don't need to pay careful attention to how we live. If all suffering will end, it does not matter if we are the cause.
Yuck.:run:
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angellous_evangellous
Guest
sojourner said:
It is an important question to ponder given the Christian testimony that God is good.
angellous_evangellous said:
The whole point is that those who see God as "The big bogey Man" (as long as they don't try to spread that attitude) are perfectly free to do so.
I believe we all have our own individual relationship; maybe some need the vision of a bad tempered disciplinarian of a God to keep themselves in line. This reminds me so much of the way parents teach their kids to view policemen; thankfully, I was taught that the policeman is a great guy if you are in trouble and need help. It wans't until I was in my twenties and got in with a group of policemen 9because I knew one of them well) that I discovered how caring thoughtful they are - even to those who had done something agaist the law.
As one of them said to me once "Sure, we're here to catch the villains, but at the same time as we catch them (as long as they give in with good grace, which most of them will), we are also there to help them as much as we can; them and their families.
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angellous_evangellous
Guest
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angellous_evangellous
Guest
*sniffle*
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angellous_evangellous
Guest
*bump due to recent interest/discussion on hell*
love
tri-polar optimist
Do we question why God chose to make the butterfly start out as a worm? Why He chose to have the black widow kill her mate after conception?
Why did God choose man to be in charge of His garden and comprehend His existence?
Man puts himself on a pedestal. All to often we have seen men in power take a route that has no regard for human pain and suffering.
Though these men may have conquered nations and imposed their will upon others, they did not conquer their own death. Most did not decide when it was going to be.
There are people who believe Christ was God.
I believe as men we have seen nothing closer.
There are people who believe Jesus was a great prophet. Who can only in truth see His words as love and salvation, not condemnation.
St. Mark 12:28
And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
And Jesus answered him,The first of all commandments is, Hear O Israel; The The Lord our God is one Lord:
And thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength:this is the first commandment.
And the second is like, namely this, Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
When is the last time you begged God for these privileges?
I hope I do it daily for the rest of my life.
Why did God choose man to be in charge of His garden and comprehend His existence?
Man puts himself on a pedestal. All to often we have seen men in power take a route that has no regard for human pain and suffering.
Though these men may have conquered nations and imposed their will upon others, they did not conquer their own death. Most did not decide when it was going to be.
There are people who believe Christ was God.
I believe as men we have seen nothing closer.
There are people who believe Jesus was a great prophet. Who can only in truth see His words as love and salvation, not condemnation.
St. Mark 12:28
And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
And Jesus answered him,The first of all commandments is, Hear O Israel; The The Lord our God is one Lord:
And thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength:this is the first commandment.
And the second is like, namely this, Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
When is the last time you begged God for these privileges?
I hope I do it daily for the rest of my life.
Diogenes
Member
Nietzsche believed that God died out of pity for man. He was no modern atheist. He thought that God had withdrew to such a degree that man was left all alone in the Universe. Here is the plight that we face-you see it often in the books of the Prophets. Does God save man by the scales of justice or by mercy? As a famous Rabbi once said, "Thank G-d that the empire(Babylonian) exists, for if it did not then men would swallow one another whole." When suffering seems overwhelming, we want justice to prevail. When we are at peace we cry out for mercy to reign for ever, to be left alone. The entire weight of history shows both man and God in a precarious position, what Heschel described as "God's search for man". There are no easy answers to be doled out whenever we hope to find the ultimate solutions to suffering.
porkchop
I'm Heffer!!!
Who on earth do you think you are to ask God to change His ways??? How about changing your self rightous ways, eh?
God set the rules and the way to get to heaven, its easy and simple, all you have to do is accept Jesus into your heart (the Jesus of the Bible) and use the Bible as your way of life, it contains all we need to know.
It's not God that needs to change, its people.
Yea, that'll do it!
Where to begin?:cover: You dare to say you would be more HUMANE than God, look out for those blots of lightening!
We cause suffering, famine, war,etc... God has given us free will. Of course He is able to stop it, why should He when we cause it and tell Him we don't want Him in our lifes??!!or that we could do a better job, or say He should change to suit out needs??!!It's not.
[/QUOTE]
This isn't an actual prayer, this is to guide us on how to pray.
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angellous_evangellous
Guest
A human being concerned for the present life and destiny of others. Belief in a dehumanized god is inextricable to the dehumanization of humans. That is, if we have a ruthless and unjust god, we will be ruthless and unjust to other people. The doctrine of hell is what lead Christians to torture people in the past and present.
I do think that we share the burden... if God is as you say, then God definately should change. I'm all for humans changing too. Personally, I think that we share the burden - divinity and humanity created this mess, and according to Christianity, divinity and humanity will clean it up.
see my Process Theology of the Cross
It has been understood as a prayer and used as such since its creation.
Ringer
Jar of Clay
And under what pretenses do you believe that God has become rutherless or unjust? It seems that you are basing you conclusions as one who reads the morning paper and believes that there is nothing but the dregs of the human condition in the world. Maybe you need to research all the good that God is doing behind the scenes, particularly in different parts of the world.
Or, the disbelief in God is inextricable to the dehumanizations of humans.
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angellous_evangellous
Guest
None. I see theologizing and God to be completely seperate.
Not so. Atheism, when no portrait of God is just, is quite robust and healthy.
porkchop
I'm Heffer!!!
What, so because people are sinners, God must be sinful? Because people hate,lie, murder, steal, God must be the same? Where did you come up with that kind of tripe?? God is just, fair, kind, loving, read the Bible, it's all there.
Because you do not understand the ways of God, you misunderstand the doctrine of hell and think that God should change His ways. If only we would change our ways then we would avoid hell.
These "christians" that tortured people i would not consider "christians"
The only burden i have is to share the gospel with people who are not yet saved.
When i have time.
I know, it is a great misconception amongst christians.
Ringer
Jar of Clay
I only wish that there existed such a society at one point that could back up this claim. Pardon my ignorance if there has been one because I don't know of any.
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angellous_evangellous
Guest
It was Bertrand Russell, the famous atheist, that brought sanity to American Protestantism by his criticism of how Christians treat women and homosexuals. The liberation of women, homosexuals, and even slaves did not come from Christianity but from atheist ethics which were liberated from the tyranny of the Bible and its interpreters.
I'd have to point to America as an excellent example of an atheist society, at least idealistically in its government. The seperation of church and state - thank God - spares us from another Dark Age instituted by evangelical Christians with a powerlust to re-establish a theocricy in the name of an insane god.