1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Christian or Judaism: Moses is God and Word is God. Jesus is Moses and Elijah

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by t3gah, Jan 20, 2005.

  1. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2004
    Messages:
    1,125
    Ratings:
    +48
    Christian or Judaism: Moses is God and Word is God.

    Jesus transfigures himself on the mountain when he's with three apostles into Moses, Elijah and Himself. Moses is said to be God in Exodus 4:16 and the Word is said to be God in John 1:1.

    Jesus and Moses are the same person then. But Jesus also transfigured himself into Elijah too, which means Jesus is Elijah as well.
     
  2. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2004
    Messages:
    5,917
    Ratings:
    +471
    Big difference: Moses did not claim to make others divine by his own nature. Christ did. How would he do that without being divine?
     
  3. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2004
    Messages:
    1,125
    Ratings:
    +48
    [World English Bible]

    Mark 9:2 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James, and John, and brought them up onto a high mountain privately by themselves, and he was changed into another form in front of them. 9:3 His clothing became glistening, exceedingly white, like snow, such as no launderer on earth can whiten them. 9:4 Elijah and Moses appeared to them, and they were talking with Jesus.

    9:5 Peter answered Jesus, “Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. Let’s make three tents: one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 9:6 For he didn’t know what to say, for they were very afraid.

    9:7 A cloud came, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud, “This is my beloved Son. Listen to him.”

    9:8 Suddenly looking around, they saw no one with them any more, except Jesus only.


    Jude 9 But Michael, the archangel, when contending with the devil and arguing about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him an abusive condemnation, but said, “May the Lord rebuke you!”


    2 Kings 2:1 It happened, when Yahweh would take up Elijah by a whirlwind into heaven, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.


    2 Kings 2:11 It happened, as they still went on, and talked, that behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. 2:12 Elisha saw it, and he cried, “My father, my father, the chariots of Israel and its horsemen!”

    He saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and tore them in two pieces.


    Exodus 4:16 He will be your spokesman to the people; and it will happen, that he will be to you a mouth, and you will be to him as God.


    John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended out of heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven.

    How does Jesus become Moses, Elijah and Himself when Moses is dead and Elijah is supposedly taken up to heaven in 2 Kings 2:11? Does Jesus here resurrect Moses whom Michael the Archangel was disputing with Satan over the whereabouts of Moses body (Jude 9) and then send Moses body back to where it came from? The reasoning here is that God tells Moses he will not see the promised land. Jesus in John 3:13 says no one has gone to heaven except Him. Jesus changes into Elijah who is reported to have ascended to heaven in 2 Kings 2:11 and also Moses who's dead, whereabouts of the body only God knows. See Exodus (God tells Moses to go up to the mountain right after Moses tells Joshua that he, Moses, will not enter into the promised land and that he, Joshua, is now in command of the Israelites.) Those resurrected by Jesus, the apostles and the disciples were not put to death after their resurrection. So what is my answer to the first question at the beginning of this paragraph? Jesus is Elijah and Moses as well as the Word.
     
  4. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2004
    Messages:
    1,125
    Ratings:
    +48
    Deuteronomy 34:5,6

    The writer of the passage in the scripture above doesn't know for a fact that Moses actually died and was buried because he didn't see the grave. There are no comments that state that Joshua received a message from God about this in the scriptures either. Who's to say that all of the text in the Torah was written by Moses at all. Maybe it was Joshua all along. IF Jesus turned into Moses and Elijah and the writer of Deuteronomy never saw the grave of Moses, it's more than likely that Moses ascended to heaven because he was just like Jesus. An angel in disguise. This also explains why there is no account of Jesus early life just like Moses early life. And as I have learned recently all big assignments were carried out by Jesus when he is Michael the Archangel.
     
  5. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2004
    Messages:
    1,313
    Ratings:
    +61
    what?according to?

    because i believe in divine inspiration.
     
  6. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    9,497
    Ratings:
    +927
    Your problem is t3gah that your premise that "Moses is G-d and Word is G-d. Jesus is Moses and Elijah" goes against the core of traditional Judaism. Moses can not be G-d nor G-d Moses, period.
    One of the 13 princples of the great Rambam, a mainstay of traditional judaism states:
    "G-d is incorporeal"

    In jewish thought, G-d can not have a material form therefore, Moses nor anyone else can be G-d and vice versa
     
  7. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2004
    Messages:
    1,125
    Ratings:
    +48
    "G-d cannot have a material form" makes sense, but the passage about Jesus turning into Moses, Elijah and Himself and then Jesus stating no one has descended or ascended to and from heaven except "the son of man" means that Jesus is also incorporeal. But Jesus did bleed and water did come out of him when poked with a spear the night he died. So Jesus is contradicting an equation that he mentioned to the Jews that no flesh goes to heaven. What of the beginning verses of John which state that the Word is G-d or Word is a G-d? Or the scripture that states that Moses is G-d to Aaron?

    Wait.... does Judaism touch anything in the new testament? I heard that there are multiple types or hybrid types of Judaism. Which one are you from?



    Jewish Publication Society Tanach (1917)

    Exodus 4:16 And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people; and it shall come to pass, that he shall be to thee a mouth, and thou shalt be to him in God's stead.

     
  8. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    9,497
    Ratings:
    +927
    I think your thinking of Messiahnic Judaism or Jews for Jesus, who, typically, are chrisitians trying to get closer to Judaism.

    I'm between orthodoxy and conservative judaism. So, for me anyways, the Gospels don't really play a part. Moses is the highest of the prophets in Judaism and is probably the biggest figure in the Jewish faith. That does not make him, in any way, shape, or form, G-d.
     
  9. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2004
    Messages:
    1,125
    Ratings:
    +48
    Let me try this again. It was late and I didn't understand what you said here. Sorry.

    Ok, divine. Jesus makes people divine. People got baptized and became divine, because I don't recall anytime when Jesus touched someone and made them divine. Jesus selected the apostles and they had the power of the lord on their side.

    There was the account where someone not with Jesus group is expelling demons in Jesus name. Did Jesus make this person divine? No mention in the scriptures. Jesus cured people by touching them. Jesus expelled demons by word of His voice.

    So what are we talking about here with this 'divine' business?
     
  10. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2004
    Messages:
    5,917
    Ratings:
    +471
    OK.

    In Jn. 10.34ff, Jesus defends His divinity by saying that the Word came to the authors of Scripture and made them "gods" to defend His calling Himself God. He said, in essence, "If the Word made men gods, why do you accuse me of blasphemy because I, who come from the Father [i.e. is the Word] claim to be the Son of God?" I went over this quite a bit in my recent same faiths debate, and I think it was pretty conclusive.

    To put it another way, the Early Church taught "God became man so that men might become gods." This puts the parable of the vine, the promise of adoption, and several other things into a whole new light.

    Jesus promised to be able to make men extensions of the divine, and that's something Moses could not do.
     
  11. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2004
    Messages:
    1,125
    Ratings:
    +48
    I See now, thanks for the explanation. Moses could not be divine or promise divine things. I remember now. God speaks to Aaron and Moses about the things they both shall do for God, etc.

    The part about the vine and men might become gods. Do you have some references for that you can post?


    This doesn't answer the part about Jesus being Moses and Elijah which I got all messed up here because that's not what I meant to post. I should have made two separate debates here since these are obviously two separate idea's. Which I have done. I got all mixed up with the two thoughts and one debate. I cleared this all up in another thread I've started.
     
  12. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2004
    Messages:
    5,917
    Ratings:
    +471
    Yes, look in my Same Faith debate on John 1.1. You'll find a rather exhaustive (for a forum) list. if you want me to copy and paste it, I will. For dates, our first reference to the phrases like "God became man so that men might become gods" comes from St. Irenaeus, and it is still used (obviously...I just did lol). The theology is in the book of John, as I outlined, and it is the underlying theology to the Eucharist: You eat God, so you can see the theology in the Synoptics clear as day (as an unspoken presupposition). They also make a point of saying Christ gives power to become sons of God, and theosis (God becoming man so that we can live in God) is the "how" it was done.


    No, I didn't. I'm sorry.

    They're connected in how you are viewing them, but here's another: Jesus didn't turn into Moses and Elijah. Moses and Aaron came to Christ, so that all three were there. The light of the Transfiguration, naturally, comes from Christ (and shines in all three). Thus, Christ was transfigured, but He wasn't Moses and Elijah.
     
  13. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2004
    Messages:
    1,125
    Ratings:
    +48
    This means that my other thread "... son of man... heaven.. " is correct with the assumption that Moses and Elijah went to heaven, came down for the account with Peter, John and James, and then went back to heaven again.

    Ezekiel is called "son of man" many times, etc., but my other thread goes into way more detail than I will go into here.

    Thanks for the explanation. Can you post your Same Faith Debate link here please?
     
  14. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2004
    Messages:
    5,917
    Ratings:
    +471
    I don't fancy to know with that much detail what happened :). Who's to say heaven is even a place? Rather, I simply say they appeared and disappeared. There's no need to over-speculate there, because that will lead to problems.

    Debate:
    http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7904
     
Loading...