One way we know logic is real is because of preditable effect. I haven't been to college much so you tell me if that is missing the mark. OK? We know God is real the same way.
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Christian Apologetics
- Thread starter dgirl1986
- Start date
Cephus
Relentlessly Rational
Perhaps so but that doesn't change what I said one bit.
Cephus
Relentlessly Rational
That's not an insult, it's factual reality. Whether or not you like that reality is irrelevant. Can logic be proved? No, not to any degree of absolute certainty. Logic is just a means humans have found which produces demonstrable results. It is a mechanism, just like mathematics, just like science. It is useful because it produces results and makes accurate predictions. Of course, nobody has faith in logic, anyone who has stopped to think about it will realize that logic is a human invention. It doesn't stop it from being a useful human invention.
This;
is not an insult?
Cephus
Relentlessly Rational
No, it's the truth. One only has to debate with believers to find that out, people who are totally incapable or unwilling to question their beliefs to find out if they're true. They just insist that they are. If you're insulted by the truth, the problem isn't on my side but on yours.
Thruve
Sheppard for the Die Hard
Listen dude. Half the time I've been alive I've spent cursing God. I fooking HATE him with a passion. Then when I can finally see truth, truth that exists that you claim does not, I cry like a little hoe on my knees and look up.
Truth that only came from looking up.
Truth that can withstand trial and error.
Truth that comes from purpose of events that I could never even dare understand had I not looked up.
I'm always looking up ^ something exists. Maybe not a diety for your sake, but something worth calling God. I cannot prove it, but I can attest to it, and so can son and a few others. So can Muslims. If we couldn't, we wouldn't be around son. I wouldn't of been atleast.
Some people are like that. I think you say "all" believers do not care about truth.
Some atheists do not care about truth. Most people do not care about truth. Not all people who do not agree with you do not care about it.
Cephus
Relentlessly Rational
And I would argue that's true because I have yet to meet a single believer who was capable of stepping back and evaluating their beliefs objectively and critically. If they could, they wouldn't need blind faith. Blind faith is nothing to be proud of.
It is useless to those who are rejecting of the Message of the Bible. But for those who have a mind for the Message contained within it they are lead by the Holy Spirit into understanding what they need to understand in it that they need to accept...
Let me use an analogy;
The Bible is like stairs that take you up from a lower platform to a higher platform. And each step is a portion of knowledge that one has to accept by taking that step before considering the next step (potion of knowledge) Now the first steps are pretty simple. Things like God exists and these things are evil and these things are good. The last step is accepting the Atonement of the Messiah Jesus. Now if a person rejects the first step as they are reading the Bible The Holy Spirit already knows that they shall reject the final steps indeed they will never get to them. So the person can read on but they will end up with their own interpretations that will not be correct. Because they have rejected the foundational basic principles.
Maybe yes maybe no.. I do not know you personally and i don't know if the Holy Spirit is still working on you. I am not God therefore i do not have foreknowledge of your entire life. So i do not know your personal future either way.
The Holy Spirit will work on a person He knows is going to accept the Message for an entire life time to get them to take that first step and guide them quickly up those stairs. Sometimes the first step will take a person 80 years and the rest of the steps will take that person 5 minutes. Sometimes people will make it up to the step just before the last one in 5 minutes and never take that final step.
I think you mean believing in something that can not be seen like Spirit is blind. We disagree. So it seems to me you are becoming what you accuse believers of being which is to stand back and consider that you might be wrong. Have you asked anyone who believes in God yet if she thinks she might be wrong?
By the way Spirit cannot be evaluated objectively. It is impossible. I think it is silly you say we won't see but you do not know what you are asking us to do is impossible.
Thruve
Sheppard for the Die Hard
What your going through right now is the very thing I go through in my faith and it's happened a dozen times. I critically think and come to different conclusions, often that God doesn't exist. You act like its easy to have faith dude.
Bunyip
pro scapegoat
I don't think it would be easy to have faith. The point is that faith is not a positive attribute, it hinders critical thinking. Faith is the alternative to critical analysis, not the result of it.
Faith is not a result of critical analysis. Correct. Faith is the alernative to critical analysis. No sir!
Faith in God hinders critical thinking about The Person of God. But not anything else.
Picture being married. Would you be happy to be married to someone who alway looked to you critically? I wouldn't. We don't look to God critically. It is rude and not humble.
Bunyip
pro scapegoat
Sure, but the 'person of God' is the topic here - hence the relevance.
I would have no problem with my wife applying critical thought to any facet of our relationship.
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That is not what I said. Applying critical thought to you personally is what I said.
I do not apply critical thought to The Person of God but I do apply it often to my relationship with The Person of God. More so than any scientist applies critical thought to her work, I am sure.
Seeing as I was devout for many years, and was a staunch believer in the message of Jesus, I can say without a doubt I won't be going back to it. *shrug*
I walked the walk, and left path, to forge a way amongst the unknown. To blaze a trail where no one knows, but I have found a home.
Bunyip
pro scapegoat
Right, you are more critical of your relationship to god than any scientist - was there a point to such a silly claim?
What's that suppose to mean? I am sure most scientists go home and do what they do apart from science. My relationship with God is all the time. Everyday. No weekends. No vacations. No 9-5.
Cephus
Relentlessly Rational
Then you have no rational reason to believe it is real. You can't have it both ways. Believing in something for which you have no good reason to think it is real is foolish and the more that you argue that nobody can evaluate it intelligently, you just reveal that you haven't done so yourself. If it's impossible to do, then you shouldn't be believing in it.